Cross-cut fuseki

Annihilist · #1

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Normal Fuseki $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This here is what we usually see as an opening. Each player claims two corner points adjacent to one another. Normal

Occasionally, thouhg, this is seen

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Normal Fuseki $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black may play the opposite corner.

What are the advantages/disadvantages for Black choosing such a way to play? Why is it not seen often? Does a simpler or more complex game follow?

Discuss.

It doesn't matter which point is played (3-4, 4-4, etc.) for the sake of this discussion.

emeraldemon · #2

Annihilist wrote:

What are the advantages/disadvantages for Black choosing such a way to play? Why is it not seen often? Does a simpler or more complex game follow?

I don't think go is so well understood that we can definitely say a cross-cut fuseki has clear advantages or disadvantages. Every game of go is complex, I think.

palapiku · #3

My understanding is that diagonal fuseki (which is what Sensei's calls this formation) used to be more popular before the introduction of komi. Now Black has to be much more aggressive from the beginning, so he almost inevitably goes for parallel fuseki, creating a large framework (even with the first two moves!) and forcing White to invade.

Basically, the temperature is lower in diagonal fuseki. It is more peaceful. And with komi, this is an advantage for White, which is why Black avoids it.

lovelove · #4

palapiku wrote:

My understanding is that diagonal fuseki (which is what Sensei's calls this formation) used to be more popular before the introduction of komi. Now Black has to be much more aggressive from the beginning, so he almost inevitably goes for parallel fuseki, creating a large framework (even with the first two moves!) and forcing White to invade.

Basically, the temperature is lower in diagonal fuseki. It is more peaceful. And with komi, this is an advantage for White, which is why Black avoids it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Peaceful? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · #5

I have heard the opposite: a diagonal fuseki is a fighting fuseki. If you want to play for a moyo, don't play diagonal fuseki. If you want to play a fighting game, play diagonal fuseki.

Phoenix · #6

It's about small- versus large-scale.

My understanding is that simply based on which corners are claimed, it's simply easier to build a large moyo and gain influence in general if your stones are on the same side of the board.

In my experience games can get messy and fighty quicker with cross fusekis. Much like Kirby said.

palapiku · #7

Kirby wrote:

I have heard the opposite: a diagonal fuseki is a fighting fuseki. If you want to play for a moyo, don't play diagonal fuseki. If you want to play a fighting game, play diagonal fuseki.

Sure, there will be fights, but each fight will be less valuable. Lower temperature.

Annihilist · #8

palapiku wrote:

My understanding is that diagonal fuseki (which is what Sensei's calls this formation) used to be more popular before the introduction of komi. Now Black has to be much more aggressive from the beginning, so he almost inevitably goes for parallel fuseki, creating a large framework (even with the first two moves!) and forcing White to invade.

Basically, the temperature is lower in diagonal fuseki. It is more peaceful. And with komi, this is an advantage for White, which is why Black avoids it.

So it's almost advantageous for black to play this in a game with no komi, i.e. 5k vs 6k or something like that.

snorri · #9

lovelove wrote:

palapiku wrote:

My understanding is that diagonal fuseki (which is what Sensei's calls this formation) used to be more popular before the introduction of komi. Now Black has to be much more aggressive from the beginning, so he almost inevitably goes for parallel fuseki, creating a large framework (even with the first two moves!) and forcing White to invade.

Basically, the temperature is lower in diagonal fuseki. It is more peaceful. And with komi, this is an advantage for White, which is why Black avoids it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Peaceful? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

That's white's choice, of course, and although it's a fine one, with high komi, white doesn't have to take the aggressive approach, which is one reason this :w6:

is common in the diagonal pattern. I don't things are always as simple as saying that "X fuseki leads to fighting" this early. It takes two players to make a game.

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Peaceful, maybe... $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 6 . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Splatted · **#10**

What I read was that diagonal games are generally lower scoring for both sides, which makes komi proportionately larger. I think this is what palapiku meant, but I'm not sure; I definitely wouldn't describe diagonal games as more peaceful or lower temperature.

Phoenix · **#11**

Right! Fights might be less big, but since making a moyo is more difficult and things are more small-scale, every small gain or loss is magnified and more important. ;-)

SmoothOper · **#12**

I have seen them called Diagonal fuseki's, there are any number of fuseki based on these opening. In general though both white and black have to cooperate to play these, though some players who really like diagonal Fuseki can approximate them with approaches on 3 rather than taking the other corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Diagonal Approach $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

At which point white has the option to tenuki and let black have the corner. Something like

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Diagonal Approach tenuki $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . 6 7 . . , . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think black really has to want the diagonal fuseki to play this way though.

snorri · **#13**

SmoothOper wrote:

I have seen them called Diagonal fuseki's, there are any number of fuseki based on these opening. In general though both white and black have to cooperate to play these, though some players who really like diagonal Fuseki can approximate them with approaches on 3 rather than taking the other corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Diagonal Approach $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

At which point white has the option to tenuki and let black have the corner. Something like

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Diagonal Approach tenuki $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . 6 7 . . , . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think black really has to want the diagonal fuseki to play this way though.

The goal of :b3:

is not necessarily to play a diagonal opening. It can be more like a probe, to try to get either a double approach or a mini-Chinese opening:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Diagonal Approach $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

(Also, in your second diagram, I don't think :b9:

is a good idea, but that's a different topic.)

SmoothOper · **#14**

snorri wrote:

(Also, in your second diagram, I don't think :b9:

is a good idea, but that's a different topic.)

OK. I do need to find a better double approach technique, but that is the idea. It is interesting that through tewari you can derive the the mini-chinese.

Bill Spight · **#15**

If there were an advantage to Black to the diagonal fuseki, White could prevent it by playing in the diagonal corner first.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Anti-diagonal Fuseki $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The parallel fuseki became more popular after the introduction of komi, because of the choices of White.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Pre-komi Fuseki $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Before the days of komi White generally made an approach with :w4:

instead of playing in the open corner, to complicate matters.

gowan · **#16**

As for why the diagonal fuseki are prone to fighting, consider that after move 4 there are two large sector lines, one "black" the other "white" running between the diagonally opposite corners. At this point all four stones that have been played are inside the opponent's sector lines!

Phoenix · **#17**

gowan wrote:

As for why the diagonal fuseki are prone to fighting, consider that after move 4 there are two large sector lines, one "black" the other "white" running between the diagonally opposite corners. At this point all four stones that have been played are inside the opponent's sector lines!

Sector lines are a tool for detecting the threat of enclosure, aren't they?

Sector lines that long should essentially be disregarded in favor of a good continuation along the sides, I think.

Cross-cut fuseki

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