It is currently Sun May 04, 2025 2:01 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Anyone here tried studying the Igo Hatsuyôron?
Post #1 Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:53 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 546
Liked others: 18
Was liked: 81
KGS: FanXiping
OGS: slashpine
As a DDK player, I can say that I am not yet in Igo Hatsuyôron territory by any means, but I was wondering, based on the oft-mentioned exceptional difficulty of these problems, if the collection is not meant to be solved, but rather, through repeated attempts at a solution, to stimulate the development of powers of analysis in the strongest dan-level players. Analogous to a zen kôan, might we say?

I base my question on my recent experiences with tsumego. I often find that I learn more when I work through a problem by applying different techniques and, in the process, discover the reasoning behind moves and sequences of moves. Even if I could just look at the solution, I would still like to know what makes it correct. Looking at professional games with commentary also helps; I have a bit more background info when trying out a particular, say, opening or L&D problem since I have examples to inform my guesses.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Anyone here tried studying the Igo Hatsuyôron?
Post #2 Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:44 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2659
Liked others: 310
Was liked: 631
Rank: kgs 6k
My understanding of how to stimulate these powers has been strongly affected by Kageyama (Lessons in the Fundamentals). Towards the beginning of that book, he shows an easy ladder - but, hard for me at the time I read the book. He says anyone can read out ladders, and if you can't you should move the stones all the way across the board, so that the ladder becomes a short one. If you can read that out successfully, move the stones away by one diagonal, and then again, and before you know it you're reading a ladder clear across the board. Then you read out a ladder problem or two every day, and within a month you can read out ladders that aren't even on the board yet.

Likewise with tsumego, I assume - staring at it until your eyes hurt will do no good. (Which isn't to say you can't treat a hard Go problem as a koan. But koan are not intended to make you strong at Go, no?)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Anyone here tried studying the Igo Hatsuyôron?
Post #3 Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:50 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1206
Liked others: 51
Was liked: 192
Rank: KGS 5d
KGS: Str1fe, Midorisuke
I can solve some of the easier problems in the Igo Hatsuyoron, and I don't think its purpose is simply to stimulate strong players. They aren't unsolvable by a long shot, they're just hard problems. In general, I think that if you can't solve a problem in a few* minutes, you're simply not at the level to do that problem yet, and you shouldn't do it.

*"few" depends on your rank

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Anyone here tried studying the Igo Hatsuyôron?
Post #4 Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:21 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 408
Location: Poland, Gliwice
Liked others: 127
Was liked: 94
Rank: EGF 3kyu
Universal go server handle: tommyray (1d/2d)
It's like weight lifting. Sure, you can try even 500 lb. at your visit in a gym. Why not? Well... There is no much sense in trying that and it's just a waste of time.
If you are ddk do not try any dan level problems - it's the same like in my example above. Waste of time and a headache guarantee.

If you want just to contemplate these problems - sure, you can. Nothing will change however. Nor you understanding of go, nor your skills.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Anyone here tried studying the Igo Hatsuyôron?
Post #5 Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:54 am 
Oza

Posts: 3723
Liked others: 20
Was liked: 4671
Quote:
I often find that I learn more when I work through a problem by applying different techniques and, in the process, discover the reasoning behind moves and sequences of moves. Even if I could just look at the solution, I would still like to know what makes it correct.


You may find my Gateway to All Marvels fills the void. Many techniques are identified, discussed and indexed over a very large range of problems that include the easisest and the hardest. Plus there is a wealth of historical commentary that helps you both enjoy and remember the shapes.

If you want to insist on having the Meijin Inseki as your mentor, you will probably find his Yoshin Joki more suited to your grade.


This post by John Fairbairn was liked by 3 people: imabuddha, Mef, tekesta
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Anyone here tried studying the Igo Hatsuyôron?
Post #6 Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:04 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1582
Location: Hong Kong
Liked others: 54
Was liked: 544
GD Posts: 1292
I can tell you our member, Cassandra, has extensively studied problem #120 of Igo Hatsuyoron

_________________
http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Anyone here tried studying the Igo Hatsuyôron?
Post #7 Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:43 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 852
Location: Central Coast
Liked others: 201
Was liked: 333
Rank: KGS [-]
GD Posts: 428
One thing worth noting is how tsumego get to be certain levels -

You start by learning basic shapes (killing shapes, living shapes, etc), then you might go up a level to get to where you force your opponent into those shapes prior to killing. Then you might get to where you have a problem where you need to make a move that is miai to create one of two different killing shapes.

Then you might move into tesuji problems. You will have a problem where there is a particular tesuji to create a liberty shortage, or a tesuji to destroy an eye. Then you'll have problems where you force your opponent into a shape where you can apply the tesuji...then you have problems where you get to a position that makes miai of two different tesuji, etc.

Now by the time you get to the level of the Igo Hatsuyo ron, you have the idea where there's layers upon layers of techniques, you play into a position where you have a variety of options of killing shapes where each branch might only work due to different tesuji, etc. There may be some value to playing through the solutions, but you might not get the full effect unless it is annotated to show you why certain moves are significant (or likewise unless you are already familiar with certain tesuji). It may be better to start with problems that simply involving applying the technique as opposed to finding ways to force your opponent into a position where they choose which sword to fall on.

If you are looking for a book to just read through the problems and solutions, I would second the choice of John F.'s e-book "Gateway to all Marvels". It does an excellent job of providing you with a description of the techniques involved with each problem, related problems (so you can see the same technique in a different context), and even things like historical background for problems (if you prefer a little flavor added to your go).

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Anyone here tried studying the Igo Hatsuyôron?
Post #8 Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:55 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 546
Liked others: 18
Was liked: 81
KGS: FanXiping
OGS: slashpine
lobotommy wrote:
It's like weight lifting. Sure, you can try even 500 lb. at your visit in a gym. Why not? Well... There is no much sense in trying that and it's just a waste of time.
If you are ddk do not try any dan level problems - it's the same like in my example above. Waste of time and a headache guarantee.

If you want just to contemplate these problems - sure, you can. Nothing will change however. Nor you understanding of go, nor your skills.
I could probably lift 250 lbs. at most - in a deadlift. Anything over that is playing with my spine, even if I use proper technique. Being out of shape, I probably cannot muster the strength for even that :cry: I once looked at an IH problem when I was not even 15k and I just could not make any sense of it. Even now Igo Hatsuyôron is way beyond my current skill level, but lately I've developed a curiosity toward it. It's the same feeling I get whenever I look at a 20-step calculus problem. Impossible to do at first, but as one's knowledge of the required problem-solving processes increases the problem appears easier and easier to do until one day, you can solve it.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Anyone here tried studying the Igo Hatsuyôron?
Post #9 Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:08 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 546
Liked others: 18
Was liked: 81
KGS: FanXiping
OGS: slashpine
John Fairbairn wrote:
You may find my Gateway to All Marvels fills the void. Many techniques are identified, discussed and indexed over a very large range of problems that include the easisest and the hardest. Plus there is a wealth of historical commentary that helps you both enjoy and remember the shapes.
Thank you for the suggestion! I have a copy of it on one of my flash drives. I'll open it up and read through it.
Quote:
If you want to insist on having the Meijin Inseki as your mentor, you will probably find his Yoshin Joki more suited to your grade.
Yoshin joki... This is the first time I even heard of it. Where can I acquire a copy?

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group