Project Shodan, KGS nick - Vladimir

[Boidhre]

Thank you for this insight. It seems that everbody thinks it's impossible in given circumstances.

Not so much impossible as very hard for most people to do when they don't have a wife, job and kid taking up a lot of their time. You're just taking a tough goal and making it much harder for yourself.

With young kids, you won't be able to get as many games in as other people usually. The guys I know who made very, very fast progress did it by playing an awful lot of games every day. You don't have this option, so you have to figure out other ways of increasing your go strength. The standard answer usually is do a lot of go problems when you can't be playing games. Fitting problems into your day with young kids is much easier than fitting games because go books can be put down and come back to when you've a chance but if you're playing a live game against another person online you don't have this option. But if all you do is solve problems and not get game practice in you won't achieve good results normally. So you need to find times when you can play. Unfortunately, if your daughter are like my kids that means free time late at night when I'm not mentally in the best place to be playing go, but we have to work with what we get.

[vpopovic]

Thank you for those words.

[Bantari]

Ed Lee's advice is good. Get a pro teacher.

Do you guys mean a pro-level teacher or a teacher who teaches for money? And why should one be picked above the other at 12k level?

I almost think that, at least for now, a pro teacher would be a waste of good money. To be honest, I would not worry about a pro-level teacher until at least 1d level, if even then. Better to either find a ama-low-dan-level player who agrees to provide some instruction (for fee or not.) A 1d-ama friend can easily help you out to reach 2k or so without even knowing it, just by play and advice, and as fast or faster than a formal pro-level lessons. Just my opinion.

As for game reviews (here, on GTL, etc.), play malkovich, play a lot of stronger players, and when you find one willing to give pointers and analyze after the game - hold on to that guy like gold!

PS>
As for a 'study plan'... Just an idear, you understand.

STAGE 1.
I think at the 12k-10k level, and after longer absence from the game (and with many distractions like house-stuff), I think the best for now is to just play serious games for now, until you have firmer grip on things and reach maybe 5k or so... With 60 min per day its hard... but I would say - play a game, as slow as you can (45min total, in your case maybe) - then spend the remaining 15 min going through the moves, alone or if you can with the opponent. Or with a stronger friend. If you have time to read - do some l&d, tesuji, and maybe some openings... but do not agonize about it too much. Read why in bathrrom, on the bus, whenever... no need to agonze over it for now, just get exposed to ideas. I would say: 3-6 months for that.

Finding a nice club in your area with people you can meet and play and study with would be invaluable!

STAGE 2.
On top of that...
After you reach 5k or so, dig more seriously into some books - joseki, l&d, stuff like that... Do not worry too much about 'theory', I think, although if you find time it would be great to read up on that as well, especially opening theory.

STAGE 3.
On top of that...
Then do some endgame study and dig more seriously into 'theory'.... All the time playing serious games, of course, whenever you have time.

STAGE 4.
Enjoy your new-earned and hard-won KGS-1-dan status and bask in the glory that is Go.

As a general rule, I would also do as chess players do - keep the record of all your games (easy with mostly internet play) and go over old(er) games periodically, to see if you can spot any more comment-worthy moves then before. It can help if you actually do make comments right there within the SGF as you review games. You can put dates by the comments you make, and then when you re-review, put dates there too, so you can see how your approach and ideas change... It will help you clarify where you used to make thinking mistakes and make it easier to weed those out.

[salerno]

Vladimir, shodan level means approximately 7 or 6 stones from pro.

With a job, a wife, and a daughter, it's not going to be easy.

"I want to make X-dan in Y period of time" is a popular theme in these discussions. ^(*)

To me, your goal sounds like an 8-year-old child saying,
"I decided nothing will stop me from growing 3 feet (91 cm) in 1 year."

Good luck.




_____
^(*) So far, of all these wishful declarations here on L19,
I don't recall any single one fulfilling their wish. 0% success. 100% failure.
If I've missed it, would someone kindly point out the thread where the poster succeeded. Thanks.

Vladimir, everyone else gave you already good advise, but I just wanted to say something about the demotivational post here: don't even listen to it. Shodan is actually a perfectly reasonable goal, and in fact, it isn't really that strong. Besides, you're already 10k, so you're not starting from zero. Just put yourself to it, and see where it takes you. Good luck.

[Bantari]

Vladimir, everyone else gave you already good advise, but I just wanted to say something about the demotivational post here: don't even listen to it. Shodan is actually a perfectly reasonable goal, and in fact, it isn't really that strong. Besides, you're already 10k, so you're not starting from zero. Just put yourself to it, and see where it takes you. Good luck.

Exactly!!!

[vpopovic]

Ed Lee's advice is good. Get a pro teacher.

Do you guys mean a pro-level teacher or a teacher who teaches for money? And why should one be picked above the other at 12k level?

I almost think that, at least for now, a pro teacher would be a waste of good money. To be honest, I would not worry about a pro-level teacher until at least 1d level, if even then. Better to either find a ama-low-dan-level player who agrees to provide some instruction (for fee or not.) A 1d-ama friend can easily help you out to reach 2k or so without even knowing it, just by play and advice, and as fast or faster than a formal pro-level lessons. Just my opinion.

As for game reviews (here, on GTL, etc.), play malkovich, play a lot of stronger players, and when you find one willing to give pointers and analyze after the game - hold on to that guy like gold!

PS>
As for a 'study plan'... Just an idear, you understand.

STAGE 1.
I think at the 12k-10k level, and after longer absence from the game (and with many distractions like house-stuff), I think the best for now is to just play serious games for now, until you have firmer grip on things and reach maybe 5k or so... With 60 min per day its hard... but I would say - play a game, as slow as you can (45min total, in your case maybe) - then spend the remaining 15 min going through the moves, alone or if you can with the opponent. Or with a stronger friend. If you have time to read - do some l&d, tesuji, and maybe some openings... but do not agonize about it too much. Read why in bathrrom, on the bus, whenever... no need to agonze over it for now, just get exposed to ideas. I would say: 3-6 months for that.

Finding a nice club in your area with people you can meet and play and study with would be invaluable!

STAGE 2.
On top of that...
After you reach 5k or so, dig more seriously into some books - joseki, l&d, stuff like that... Do not worry too much about 'theory', I think, although if you find time it would be great to read up on that as well, especially opening theory.

STAGE 3.
On top of that...
Then do some endgame study and dig more seriously into 'theory'.... All the time playing serious games, of course, whenever you have time.

STAGE 4.
Enjoy your new-earned and hard-won KGS-1-dan status and bask in the glory that is Go.

As a general rule, I would also do as chess players do - keep the record of all your games (easy with mostly internet play) and go over old(er) games periodically, to see if you can spot any more comment-worthy moves then before. It can help if you actually do make comments right there within the SGF as you review games. You can put dates by the comments you make, and then when you re-review, put dates there too, so you can see how your approach and ideas change... It will help you clarify where you used to make thinking mistakes and make it easier to weed those out.

Thanks, mate. This is, in most points, very consistent with my thoughts on ways to improve.
Good advices, thank you again.

[vpopovic]

Vladimir, everyone else gave you already good advise, but I just wanted to say something about the demotivational post here: don't even listen to it. Shodan is actually a perfectly reasonable goal, and in fact, it isn't really that strong. Besides, you're already 10k, so you're not starting from zero. Just put yourself to it, and see where it takes you. Good luck.

You're reading my thoughts. Thanks.

[vpopovic]

So, today I spent a lot of time searching all over net for posts about improving my go and, with your help of today, I think my study plan will be finished tomorrow.
Of course, I'll post it here.
Also, today I played 3 serious games, one lost for 0,5, other two won, one by wrong ladder reading of my 9k opponent.

Enough of go for today.

Thanks, everybody.

[EdLee]

Do you guys mean a pro-level teacher or a teacher who teaches for money?

A good pro who is also a good teacher.

I almost think that, at least for now, a pro teacher would be a waste of good money.

This is certainly a personal value judgement call.

These questions are a very popular theme in these discussions
and have been discussed ad nauseum. It's similar to finding a teacher
for the piano, for math, for carpentry, for tennis, ... YMMV.

[logan]

Hi vpopovic,

Good luck with your goal!

Since you only have at most an hour a day to then I recommend using that time to play games and have them reviewed. As others have said, it would be best to find a dan level player (since you are trying to reach 1-dan) to play with and help review your games. Since you don't have time to read books, then the dan player can help to fill in the most essential information that would have gained from reading those books. This should help you to efficiently use your time. Also, as being a human being you'll likely become burned out if you play and review a game everyday, so I suggest putting aside a couple of days a week to study life & death problems from some good books. They'll provide you with a break from your games and also let you focus on the second best way to directly improve your game.

Again, best of luck and see you in the dans!

[p2501]

Don't overthink / overplan it. Your success will be based on your efforts. It's not rocket science and there is no shortcut.

[jts]

It's probably worthwhile not to have a specific plan at first, but to try many different things. For example, many people who are lukewarm about tsumego are actually trying to do tsumego that are too hard for them, or presented in the wrong format. I dislike memorizing joseki, but it turned out that I enjoy memorizing the openings of pro games. For a lot of us learning about our own learning style is a meandering journey in its own right, but you might benefit by being a bit more disciplined about experimenting with different ways of learning.

The bottom line remains, though, that you will need to play a lot of games and/or do a lot of problems to reach shodan, so you need to think about how you will squeeze that in.

Also, try to space out your frustration evenly. If you are going from 10k to 1d in 1 year, that wil not be 2.5 stones per month; it will most likely be five stones in the first three months (to 5k), two in the next three months (to 3k) and then the three final stones over the course of the next six months. Maybe someone else can give a more scientific breakdown, but my point is; if you expect the first and last stone to require the same amount of effort, you will feel like you are hitting a wall midway through.

[Bantari]

Do you guys mean a pro-level teacher or a teacher who teaches for money?

A good pro who is also a good teacher.

Yes, but the emphasis in your and Bill's posts (and other such posts) is on the word 'pro' and not on 'good teacher'. As a matter of fact - the words 'good teacher' are not even mentioned, as if it was unimportant as long as the guy is a 'pro'. I think such position might be more natural to dan players looking for instruction, but for DDK players I would strongly argue against it!

I almost think that, at least for now, a pro teacher would be a waste of good money.

This is certainly a personal value judgement call.

Sure, but... isn't that what was asked for?!?

But there is also a rationale behind it. Can a pro player really understand what kind of issues a 12k grapples with? Sure, a pro player will know the 'right' moves, but is that really what a 12k needs the most? I am not sure what the answer to these questions are, and there are more such questions. Personally, I think that the best teacher is the one who:
1. can understand you personally and what you are going through (might have to be closer to your level for that than a pro) and
2. can teach you what you need to know (which might or might not be the 'right' moves you are not equipped to understand yet)

All in all, I am arguing that a good low-dan-ama teacher will, for now, be of equal (or even more) benefit to a DDK player than a generic pro-level teacher. Not to mention - much cheaper! I would say - don't look at pro teachers until you are a dan player or at least strong SKD.

Of course, your mileage might vary... this is just my personal take on things.

PS>
If you are interested, I have written some thoughts on teachers here.

[Bill Spight]

Yes, but the emphasis in your and Bill's posts (and other such posts) is on the word 'pro' and not on 'good teacher'.

To be sure, being a pro and being a good teacher are not the same. However, for who vpopovic is and what he wants to do, I think that a pro teacher is appropriate. Besides, there are several who teach online who have good reputations as teachers. I was not recommending that vpopovic pick a pro at random. I do not think that he would.

Even though I think that I am a good teacher, I would not undertake the task. Why? Because my go skills are too uneven. A pro will not have my weaknesses. Also, I have no experience with players who advance as rapidly as vpopovic wants to. Pros do. Yes, I knew Janice Kim when she was coming along, but once she began her training, she was told not to play amateurs.

When I was a 2 kyu (maybe Japanese shodan these days, with rank inflation) after a little more than one year of play I met Kajiwara and Kitani Reiko at the Kitani Dojo. They asked me who my teacher was. (OC, they meant a pro.) When I replied that I had none, Kitani said that since I had advanced so rapidly on my own, with a teacher I would advance by leaps and bounds. I expect that she was right. Helping people with the capacity to do so to advance by leaps and bounds is something that pros know how to do. (Not all of them, OC. )

[Bill Spight]

Can a pro player really understand what kind of issues a 12k grapples with? Sure, a pro player will know the 'right' moves, but is that really what a 12k needs the most?

A while back I took young Boidhre under my wing. Why? Because, unlike that of many beginners, his game made sense to me. To me that indicated both his potential and, more importantly, that I would be able to communicate with him.

Even so, I would not undertake to make him shodan, because of my weaknesses.