We're thinking about different things. You're thinking about the aspects of the work that needs to be done that the kid enjoys, I'm thinking about the aspects that the kid hates but are necessary to achieve the goal. Usually there's some of both in any difficult goal.

There is a lot of adult optimism here, which is pretty special. Those with this attitude haven't seen how fast kids learn, and haven't noticed their own gentle degradation. Alas, the latter is real.

That said, I fully expect to keep improving at go, just not quite as fast as a similarly-dedicated smart kid, and with a lower ceiling.

Don't you think there is a good reason that all really strong players start very young?

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- Brady
Want to see videos of low-dan mistakes and what to learn from them? Brady's Blunders

That most strong Asian players start young has two reasons: a) there are age limits for becoming pro, b) those starting late have to compete with taking time for earning money.

I learned how to program computers when I was 16. My brain was still elastic and spongy enough to absorb new concepts very rapidly. But the single most salient reason why I progressed so quickly and so effortlessly to expert level was that I had a knack for it that led me to become obsessively fascinated with every aspect of it. Not a single thing felt tedious or monotonous or uninteresting. Even debugging code was a stimulating mental exercise; a kind of game, if you will, that never got boring.

Apply that kind of comprehensive fascination to a game like Go or chess, and anyone with enough time to devote to that obsession is going to get very good very quickly (relatively speaking). It is also my belief that having a "natural aptitude" for something makes improvement easier and faster, which makes it more fun which adds to the feedback cycle of success.

Any child lacking the afore-mentioned obsessive fascination with Go is unlikely to become a pro no matter how elastic their brains are. And chances are they won't acquire that fascination, or be able to sustain it long, if they don't also have the aptitude to make rapid improvement easy and fun, at least in the early phases (like up to 1-kyu).

The simple truth is that most people will never be professionals, regardless of when they start. If becoming a pro is the deciding factor for you, then you should just quit right now. Of course you should also quit your job and all your other hobbies as well. Unless you are an incredibly rare person you will never be one of the top people in any field or hobby you attempt. That's simply a fact of numbers... there are billions of people in the world and only one of you and it's exceedingly unlikely that you'll be the one out of billions that rises to the top. Almost certainly if you haven't already identified that passion and devoted all your time and focus towards it already.

But so what? The joy of go is in the playing. In the glimpsing of the subtle beauty and incredibly depth of the game. Of continually getting better at the game. Not in being one of the best players in the world. One of the members of my go club is a 7dan amateur. It's unlikely he will ever get better than that (although that in itself is a huge accomplishment) but he sometimes talks of being bored by go. I would rather be a much lower ranked player and still love go and love playing and continue to eke along getting better than get to be great but lose interest in playing.

1. What do you think your maximum potential could be?

2. I shall now recount to you a story of me and my teacher last year around April.

Me: "I'd like to go in as AGA 3D for go congress this year"
Teacher: "Sure, that's probably do-able"
Me: "Do you think I could improve to AGA5D?"
Teacher: "That depends"
Me: "On what?"
Teacher: "Do you want to spend 8 hours a day studying go for the next 4 months?"
Me: "Not really...."
Teacher: "Then don't worry about it."

I think if I had a teacher, I could easily spend 8 hours a day studying Go. Only problem is I'd only have maybe 2-3 months of such available time.

But to answer the first question, I do not know. For all I know, I could potentially be the strongest player ever or I could potentially be a forever 5k. Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt that there is a glass ceiling there in terms of how far I can progress, but I can't really give a solid answer.

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Slava Ukraini!

And there is more than a little bit of a gulf between AGA 5D and 1P.

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- Brady
Want to see videos of low-dan mistakes and what to learn from them? Brady's Blunders

Fact is, nobody who started over the age of 20 has ever made professional, and almost nobody has managed it even when starting as a teenager (and none of those are top players).

So, realistically, to make pro level, you need to start as a child. (Besides the fact that you need a lot of perseverance, stamina and talent).

I'll go ahead and be the meanest guy in this thread. a la Seymour Skinner http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHsinpmpZZA



I think you answered your own question of whether you could really improve to become a pro, or devote enough time/study to becoming one. If all it took was 8 hours a day of 2-3 months continual study to become pro, then you'd see a ton of more strong players.

I checked up on your KGS info, and hate to be brutally honest, but if you're a KGS 6k mostly playing against bots and refusing to play slow rated games, you're probably not improving enough on your own anyway. You also have no idea yet what it takes to get stronger both in technique and knowledge needed.

Let's not forget that typically a good teacher might cost around 300 for 10 lessons. If we were to assume you were taking lessons every weekday for 3 months straight that's 60 lessons, or 1800 bucks.

I'm not going to say you can't do it, but you haven't shown the impetus for it yet and saying you'll do it tomorrow doesn't mean it'll happen. Come back and talk about pro possibilities when you're stronger or show the drive.

Why would you have so many? A good lesson should leave the student knowing what they need to work on in order to improve, and there's not much point having another lesson until they've had time to do that.

Here is the most serious advice I can give: do a test run. Get to 1d. Start now. Put in as many hours as you have free that aren't already dedicated to work or school. (Cancel anything that can be cancelled.)

If you make it through a week, studying 8+ hours every day, efficiently, without getting bored or watching the clock, there's a glimmer of hope. (If I'm honest, I'd bet all my money against it.) If you make it through a few weeks, congratulations - you're probably already 1d and rising. Consider continuing if you're enjoying putting so much time in.

If you don't make it through the first week, give up immediately. If you can't even sacrifice a week as a test run without knowing how strong you will be (because we certainly don't know), give up immediately. If you won't be happy until you're the strongest player out there, give up immediately.

Like everyone else, my point is that age is less of a limiting factor than motivation and time spent. If you can't get over those much bigger barriers, don't worry about age - that's not what's stopping you getting stronger.

I feel the tone of this post was highly unnecessary, and it seems like you've put words in my mouth in several places. Maybe you feel putting "I'm gonna be the meanest guy" at the beginning of your post justifies the rest, but it really doesn't.

My question was actually about how age affects improvement, not necessarily about me becoming a professional.

Also, please allow me to reference the final paragraph: "I'm having fun simply playing the game right now. But sometime soon I might want to re-focus my efforts in to becoming a better player. I'm just afraid that these efforts might be in vein. I wouldn't want to become 1 Dan and stay there forever, for example."

So yes, I play the bot a lot. It helps me to relax. But you're right. This isn't the right attitude to have if your goal is trying to reach pro level. And I never claimed it was.

Regardless, I'm just going to shut up about this stuff. Have a nice day.

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Slava Ukraini!

What's wrong with 1 Dan?!?

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- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

For what it's worth, most of us answered you seriously: age doesn't affect very much except how much motivation and time you have, how good your concentration span is, how likely you are to put up with boring practice rituals, and so on. Your brain does deteriorate, but the effect of it on an average 23-year-old is dwarfed so much by all the other factors that you can't even notice it.

Anyway, the poster you quoted said nothing unfair about you, and nothing that couldn't have been said about the rest of us. Becoming a professional isn't a thought to be entertained lightly, any more than becoming a professional footballer, a concert cellist or a professor in quantum physics is. They are all huge undertakings that require absurd quantities of intense study, which you haven't yet done, and it's really quite difficult to tell you how good you're going to be after all of this study that you're not yet doing - not least because so few people in their 20s try, and those who do normally lose motivation before getting anywhere. Try it and let us know. I, for one, would love to hear how far you get, how much effort you had to put in, and what you learnt along the way. Of course, I won't blame you for a second if you decide not to bother, because, well, so have all the rest of us.

Many years ago I asked my teacher if I could make it a a profesional cellist. He said yes, third chair, maybe second, but not first chair. He told me that I would have had to have started earlier.

I was eleven.

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A couple of years ago I asked my teacher if I was too old to become a professional double bassist. He said no, it wasn't actually that uncommon.

I was twenty.

Isn't the double bass weird in this respect (and others) in the orchestra? I remember reading before the varying ages needed to start an orchestra instrument at and it varied quite a bit based on how feasible playing one was at different ages. People normally start the clarinet at 8 or 9 if I recall correctly but people can start the violin many years earlier.

The disparity in the stories doesn't surprise me. I could easily believe both. Not because the cello is impossibly difficult or the double bass is so fiddly that pieces above a certain complexity simply can't be played on it or children's brains are more elastic or anything like that. But cellos are surprisingly popular instruments (violins more so, double basses less so), and the more competition you have, the greater the disadvantage you have if you start later.

The main reason I will never be a go professional, I would wager, is probably not that I'm too stupid to be. It's that the amount of time young professionals my age have put into the game already is more than the amount of time I will ever put into the game. The same goes for the cello.

I understand that what he said was reasonable, but the method felt a little rude. And I do feel that other posts were quite reasonable. I wasn't trying to ignore them. And believe me, I do not underestimate the dedication and hard work that it takes to become a professional Go player or a professional ANYTHING for that matter.

As for the rest, I'll post my endeavors in my journal. It's not exactly about reaching pro anymore (like my previous journal was dedicated to), but it's about improvement. And I've been thinking for several days about how I aim to go about doing this. I want to win one of those KGS tournaments after all!

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Slava Ukraini!