Hi this is a game I just played:
Id like to know what I should have done after move 22, I tried around a little, but coulnd't really find a good continuation.
Should I have tried to get out or was trying to live there correct and I just did it wrong?
Any help greatly appreciated
Need help on a short game
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skydyr
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Re: Need help on a short game
Aside from specific special cases, one generally wants to approach a 4-4 stone with a knight's move approach, at F3 here. This helps open the corner up to invasion, so that black has the option of making a base on the side or stealing the corner out from under white. Once white has played move 22, the one thing black does not want to do is to live locally and let white get a big wall all around. White's connections are pretty loose, so black can try to jump out between then to cut white into several groups and fight. Black may be able to isolate one of the three stones and play from there, for example. One thing that's likely to happen, though, is that black will be cut as well. It's likely that black will end up cut as well, but that's okay. White was already strong here, so black can afford to give away a few stones on one side of the cut to get a good result on the other side.
In this game, black's framework after move 20 doesn't look bad at all, so black may also be able to get away with a smaller reduction, as by taking the 3-3 point directly.
Does this make sense?
In this game, black's framework after move 20 doesn't look bad at all, so black may also be able to get away with a smaller reduction, as by taking the 3-3 point directly.
Does this make sense?
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moyoaji
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Re: Need help on a short game
Well, there are several critiques I can give about your game, but I'll focus on the life and death of your group from move 22 on.
First - move 45 should have been here. However, you might wonder what will happen to the marked stones if white keeps trying to capture them.
This atari and push leads to an interesting sequence if white insists on the capture from the inside - a ladder. Even though the ladder fails in this game because of a white stone on the left, black can use the laddering stones to his advantage like this: After this atari, the two white stones on the bottom lose a capturing race to the black stones on the inside.
White's wall was pretty weak. So what if white reinforces it instead to try to capture from the outside? Both groups have 4 liberties and black moves first, so black should win the capturing race.
White cannot atari from the inside and needs to make an approach move from below before taking. Descending to "a" was a key mistake at move 45, but in this case the point to attack on white's group is move 49. (EDIT: Nevermind about the ko, there's also a move if you attack from the outside.)
I'll review other parts of the game in another post - this time via an SGF file to make it easier to follow...
First - move 45 should have been here. However, you might wonder what will happen to the marked stones if white keeps trying to capture them.
This atari and push leads to an interesting sequence if white insists on the capture from the inside - a ladder. Even though the ladder fails in this game because of a white stone on the left, black can use the laddering stones to his advantage like this: After this atari, the two white stones on the bottom lose a capturing race to the black stones on the inside.
White's wall was pretty weak. So what if white reinforces it instead to try to capture from the outside? Both groups have 4 liberties and black moves first, so black should win the capturing race.
White cannot atari from the inside and needs to make an approach move from below before taking. Descending to "a" was a key mistake at move 45, but in this case the point to attack on white's group is move 49. (EDIT: Nevermind about the ko, there's also a move if you attack from the outside.)
I'll review other parts of the game in another post - this time via an SGF file to make it easier to follow...
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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paK0
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Re: Need help on a short game
thanks you two
skydyr: I know about the knight approach, maybe I was worried that it would be even easier to shut in, but in retrospect it seems like a way better alternative
moyoaji: thanks for the analysis, I didn't see 45 in the heat of battle. I was confident I could live there and now I see its possible, gotta work on my reading I guess
skydyr: I know about the knight approach, maybe I was worried that it would be even easier to shut in, but in retrospect it seems like a way better alternative
moyoaji: thanks for the analysis, I didn't see 45 in the heat of battle. I was confident I could live there and now I see its possible, gotta work on my reading I guess
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Boidhre
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Re: Need help on a short game
SopaK0 wrote:Id like to know what I should have done after move 22, I tried around a little, but coulnd't really find a good continuation.
was meant to reduce. 
was annoying and you couldn't read things out. You could do worse than just jumping to 3,3 and reducing that way. You still get a reduction and might be useful later on.-
moyoaji
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Re: Need help on a short game
Here is my SGF review of your game.
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- Game Review.sgf
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"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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EdLee
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mitsun
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Re: Need help on a short game
is a high move, well placed to split the W position on the side, but not so good for making a base. If your plan is to invade and live simply, then F3 or G3 or H3 would be best. However, if your plan is to break up the W position and fight, then the game move is good. After W caps, the consistent response would be to break out into the center, keeping W split, rather than trying to make a base on the side. So {E5, F5, F6, H6, H5, J5} would be the moves to consider.
Another idea would be to attach underneath at C3 or K3, intending to make an acceptably large base by drawing back if W blocks on the outside (D3-C3-E3 or K3-L3-J3). However, W will probably block inside, and B will then have to cross-cut and handle a difficult fight (D3-E3-E4 or K3-J3-J4).
Compared to all of these options, E3 and J3 are bad moves, making too small a base and giving W too good an outside wall. When you get a little stronger, moves like this should become painful to even contemplate.
After the
cut, B is in trouble. The two B groups and the inside W stones all have four liberties. Since it is B to play, he can probably capture the inside W stones, but the result will still be very bad -- even if B manages to live, the outside W thickness will be far superior. So really the only chance B has for an acceptable result is to cut through the outside W wall and capture something. There are enough cutting points that this actually looks possible, but this requires reading. Try playing out some sequences starting with the G7 cut and see what B can do. If B manages to capture one stone at H7 or two stones at J6 or two stones at K4, the W wall will be destroyed, giving B a good result, worth sacrificing the four F3 stones.