Joseki Ladder Breaker's value
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SmoothOper
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Joseki Ladder Breaker's value
How much is having a ladder breaker in place worth? In other words, can a proficient opponent avoid ladder joseki with little detriment? I assume that in amateur games it could be used effectively as an ambush, but for more informed players.
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skydyr
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Re: Joseki Ladder Breaker's value
I don't think there's a simple answer to this question, as it depends on the position, the ladder-dependent joseki, and how much of a detriment the alternative is. With some joseki, one side will completely fall apart without picking a radically different line with different goals. With others, there might be a loss of a few points to get the same or an equally good goal.
Do you have a specific joseki in mind?
Do you have a specific joseki in mind?
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SmoothOper
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Re: Joseki Ladder Breaker's value
It is pretty general, but I have been trying to research the takamoku ladder variation in conjunction with tengen. Obviously there are a number of ladder variations that shouldn't arise, but is it worth playing tengen to prepare for it?
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moyoaji
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Re: Joseki Ladder Breaker's value
It depends.
From what I've seen in games a ladder breaker in a joseki can be of enormous value. If you can get a free move on the other half of the board in an important fight as a result of creating a high-value ladder in a joseki, it is huge. Otherwise it might just be worth a few points for a free big move.
I hope you've looked at Lee Sedol's ladder game. It seems to suggest that a ladder breaker in two joseki can be worth as much as creating an immortal game. And you can't put a value on that.
http://eidogo.com/#1JsMLqp
From what I've seen in games a ladder breaker in a joseki can be of enormous value. If you can get a free move on the other half of the board in an important fight as a result of creating a high-value ladder in a joseki, it is huge. Otherwise it might just be worth a few points for a free big move.
I hope you've looked at Lee Sedol's ladder game. It seems to suggest that a ladder breaker in two joseki can be worth as much as creating an immortal game. And you can't put a value on that.
http://eidogo.com/#1JsMLqp
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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SmoothOper
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Re: Joseki Ladder Breaker's value
My question is more about playing the ladder breaker first in following example does 3 enough value to justify playing it, or will white be able to get an acceptable development anyway.moyoaji wrote:It depends.
From what I've seen in games a ladder breaker in a joseki can be of enormous value. If you can get a free move on the other half of the board in an important fight as a result of creating a high-value ladder in a joseki, it is huge. Otherwise it might just be worth a few points for a free big move.
I hope you've looked at Lee Sedol's ladder game. It seems to suggest that a ladder breaker in two joseki can be worth as much as creating an immortal game. And you can't put a value on that.
http://eidogo.com/#1JsMLqp
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oren
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Re: Joseki Ladder Breaker's value
I would guess it's more or less an equal result.SmoothOper wrote: My question is more about playing the ladder breaker first in following example does 3 enough value to justify playing it, or will white be able to get an acceptable development anyway.
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SmoothOper
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Re: Joseki Ladder Breaker's value
The two variations kogo tutor have for white are
Black has severe options available:
**edited, accidentally hit submit instead of preview**
Black has severe options available:
**edited, accidentally hit submit instead of preview**
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moyoaji
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Re: Joseki Ladder Breaker's value
Well, if you play the ladder breaker at tengen first that just means your opponent probably won't play in such a way that they set up a ladder. So I guess tengen would be the way to avoid ladder joseki from the 5-4. This should be beneficial as some of the ladder joseki are the best ways to resist getting sealed in the corner.SmoothOper wrote:My question is more about playing the ladder breaker first in following example does 3 enough value to justify playing it, or will white be able to get an acceptable development anyway.
However, there are plenty of decent 5-4 joseki that don't involve ladders. The most common response I typically get to a 5-4 joseki is the attachment underneath which then can result in this basic joseki.
But this is my personal favorite to play. I know pros don't use it nowadays and the thickness you get is awkward, but I'm okay with the result for black because white is basically sealed in the corner.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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SmoothOper
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Re: Joseki Ladder Breaker's value
According to kogo's tutor, black 5 at 6 will lead to a ladder, so this one doesn't have a ladder because presumably white has the opposing corner.moyoaji wrote:Well, if you play the ladder breaker at tengen first that just means your opponent probably won't play in such a way that they set up a ladder. So I guess tengen would be the way to avoid ladder joseki from the 5-4. This should be beneficial as some of the ladder joseki are the best ways to resist getting sealed in the corner.SmoothOper wrote:My question is more about playing the ladder breaker first in following example does 3 enough value to justify playing it, or will white be able to get an acceptable development anyway.
However, there are plenty of decent 5-4 joseki that don't involve ladders. The most common response I typically get to a 5-4 joseki is the attachment underneath which then can result in this basic joseki.
white next at a or b.
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HermanHiddema
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Re: Joseki Ladder Breaker's value
Ladder breakers have value, obviously. But a move needs to do more than just break a ladder to be of value. Always try to play multi-purpose moves. In the opening, a move that serves as a ladder breaker is only good if it also achieves something else, such as expanding a moyo, reducing an opponent's position or setting up an attack.
So in your example, you are also expanding a moyo with tengen, therefore it looks quite playable.
As a counter-example, consider this position:
Here
is a ladder breaker, but achieves little else. It is still not without value, of course, but it is not a very good move.
So in your example, you are also expanding a moyo with tengen, therefore it looks quite playable.
As a counter-example, consider this position:
Here
is a ladder breaker, but achieves little else. It is still not without value, of course, but it is not a very good move.-
SmoothOper
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Re: Joseki Ladder Breaker's value
The tengen has multiple functions of course, but is it a serious threat? Playing this way would take quite some effort to develop though, and there aren't many resources like pro games to look at. Suppose white doesn't play under the takamoku for example and makes an enclosure. The takamoku enclosure seems to be the 3-4 5-4 enclosure, which isn't ideal for the tengen moyo.HermanHiddema wrote: So in your example, you are also expanding a moyo with tengen, therefore it looks quite playable.
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amnal
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Re: Joseki Ladder Breaker's value
A serious threat to do what? It's a fine move, try playing it and see how it goes. Do you feel that all moves in a normal opening must be a 'serious threat', and if so what do you think tengen lacks in that department?SmoothOper wrote:
The tengen has multiple functions of course, but is it a serious threat?
I find that whatever way I play, it takes some effort. Even where I might think there's a difference, I've previously come to the conclusion that the feeling is mostly an illusion and everything will probably turn out fine and be basically the same after a few moves anyway.Playing this way would take quite some effort to develop though, and there aren't many resources like pro games to look at.
Regardless of whether you agree, you may as well try playing some tengen openings and see what happens. It's a perfectly good move, and even if you find some reason to not like it at least you learned something.
Why isn't it ideal? Not that you have to play it, you could make a moyoish extension or whatever and it'd probably be fine.Suppose white doesn't play under the takamoku for example and makes an enclosure. The takamoku enclosure seems to be the 3-4 5-4 enclosure, which isn't ideal for the tengen moyo.
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HermanHiddema
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Re: Joseki Ladder Breaker's value
A quick search in my GoGoD database returns 5 games where black played two 5-4 stones plus tengen as the first three moves. In most, the opponent immediately invaded the moyo.SmoothOper wrote: The tengen has multiple functions of course, but is it a serious threat? Playing this way would take quite some effort to develop though, and there aren't many resources like pro games to look at. Suppose white doesn't play under the takamoku for example and makes an enclosure. The takamoku enclosure seems to be the 3-4 5-4 enclosure, which isn't ideal for the tengen moyo.
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SmoothOper
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Re: Joseki Ladder Breaker's value
I posted those on Fairburn's Segoe thread. I think it is interesting that white didn't approach in those games.HermanHiddema wrote:A quick search in my GoGoD database returns 5 games where black played two 5-4 stones plus tengen as the first three moves. In most, the opponent immediately invaded the moyo.SmoothOper wrote: The tengen has multiple functions of course, but is it a serious threat? Playing this way would take quite some effort to develop though, and there aren't many resources like pro games to look at. Suppose white doesn't play under the takamoku for example and makes an enclosure. The takamoku enclosure seems to be the 3-4 5-4 enclosure, which isn't ideal for the tengen moyo.
Tempo is something of a consensus that tengen lacks.amnal wrote:A serious threat to do what? It's a fine move, try playing it and see how it goes. Do you feel that all moves in a normal opening must be a 'serious threat', and if so what do you think tengen lacks in that department?SmoothOper wrote:
The tengen has multiple functions of course, but is it a serious threat?
You're probably right, but to flip the coin, I recommend picking an off the beaten path Fuseki/strategy and working out all the details both strengths and weaknesses sometime.amnal wrote:I find that whatever way I play, it takes some effort. Even where I might think there's a difference, I've previously come to the conclusion that the feeling is mostly an illusion and everything will probably turn out fine and be basically the same after a few moves anyway.Playing this way would take quite some effort to develop though, and there aren't many resources like pro games to look at.
.
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wineandgolover
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Re: Joseki Ladder Breaker's value
Tengen can be used for moyo, but it is potentially even more useful in running battles. It is partially psychological. As black, instead of a single stone, pretend you've made a ponnuki in the middle. Use it for fighting because it cuts off escape routes.SmoothOper wrote: The tengen has multiple functions of course, but is it a serious threat?
If you just think of it as a ladder breaker, it is most definitely not a good play.
But if it is ladder breaker, plus moyo builder, plus fight assister, then it can be a great move.
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