Hi i had an issue with 3.3 invasions so i went and look at a joseki.

As i was looking at it i tried to disrupt black from completely forming it by playing at F17 which looks fine and unpublishable also it gives some influence at least.


Is there a way to punish the F17 move by white because all i came up is a jungle of variations with no good way to punish him.

Yes, it's trivial: can you see how to kill the D18 stone?

Yeah i saw that in all variation but still doesn't he escape with 2 points anyway?

You currently need to learn to see atari, which is the point of the previous question on how to kill D18.

If you figure this out, then you realize all your "jungle of variations" are not necessary.
Your current understanding of "influence" is also quite incomplete: F17 is not influence -- it's a very badly placed stone.

Who escapes, and where ?

Instead of screenshots, it's better to use diagrams (rotated for space):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I have a bunch of similar variations, my main question is if there is a way to kill his corner because i failed to see how.

You can also use SGF:

OK, asking if B can kill W is another, separate question.
But the first thing is for you to study why is a nonsense move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Hi lordish, so you looked up this sequence. B gets the outside, and W lives in sente in the corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

There's not much point to the main question, because that diagram contains too many mistakes.

should be at and white lives easily (but has still played that that terrible move at F17)

is auto-atari, black can capture it by playing at A18

is nonsense, should push through at B13

Can this corner die? Not if white plays correctly
Does it matter? No, white is making huge losses anyway after the F17 mistake.

If W deviates from the sequence and plays , then naturally B kills with and :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 W X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 2 O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

We compare the result on the left with the original sequence on the right:
on the left, W has already suffered a big loss because of :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | X . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X X X . . . . . X X X O O O . |
$$ | . O . . O O . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Thanks to both of you i forgot the unique nature of the corner and somehow the atari at D18 didn't looked like a true punishment to me(he still gets the corner). I know that my knowledge of the game is really poor so can you please explain to me why F17 is that bad? Can he approach and kill it later?

It's a good question. First, you think White "still gets the corner". Let's look at this for a moment:

If W wants to keep the corner, W needs to add a move :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | X . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X X X . . . . . X X X O O O . |
$$ | 5 O . . O O . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Again, we compare the 2 results. In the original sequence on the right, W takes the corner in sente.
In the new sequence on the left, W keeps the corner, yes, but in gote.
This is a big difference (in addition to the big loss of losing the one W stone).
The original stone is also very badly placed -- it is too close to B's powerful wall.

I agree with this, but I think a little more guidance might be in order. White 1 seems to be a case of trying to steal the enemies vital point, but you have to understand why it's a vital point in order to know if that works.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . c C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | d X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X b . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Try reading out some variations starting with white moves at the various lettered points, then do the same with the next diagram, and also compare them to your move at the marked point:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | d X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X b . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

A lot of these won't involve anything as dramatic as one side dying, but hopefully you can see that white has a much harder time fighting dealing with the moves in the first diagram. Can you now see why black plays that point and why it doesn't make sense for white to play there as you did?

If W ignores the ponnuki of , B has the very big move of , threatening the double atari (a):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | X . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X X X . . . . . X X X O O O . |
$$ | 6 O a . O O . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

I think another problem is that w ended in sente at right side but in gote at left side. If w does not finish the sequence at e. g. A2, black can get a big "endgame" there e. g.:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc W dies in the corner
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | X . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X X X . . . . . X X X O O O . |
$$ | 1 O 4 3 O O 5 . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc This also looks rather unhealthy for w
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | X . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X X X . . . . . X X X O O O . |
$$ | 1 O 2 . O O 4 5 . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 6 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Edit: I see that in the meantime, EdLee has already written more or less the same ...

Yeah thank you very much now it is much more clear to me.

Hi lordish, you're welcome. It's a good question,
but actually not so easy to explain at your stage. For example, you need a lot more experience
to see why the F17 stone is very badly placed, too close to B's powerful wall.

To the OP: You don't appreciate the weakness of the F17 stone and the significance of the loss in the corner.

The F17 move has several problems which can serve as guides for your future study and learning. First relates to the importance of sente versus gote. As was pointed out your sequence of moves allowing Black to capture the D18 stone results in White's invasion ending in gote. That means White has to make the last move in the corner, at B19. If White omits this move Black can play there and destabilize the white group. The standard joseki ends with Black making the last move so White has the initiative (sente) to start something elsewhere on the board. As for the White corner territory, after your sequence ending with B19, you (White) have about 8 points of territory. In the standard joseki sequence WHite gets about 10 points of territory. So your sequence loses White 2 points and also loses the initiative. Losing the initiative could possibly be OK if you gain enough from it. In this case you lost something, quite a difference.

Don't take these suggestions as criticism, we all started playing at or close to your level. You have a wonderful experience of learning ahead of you, enjoy! Go Seigen, arguably the greatest go player of the modern era, said that the greatest enjoyment is becoming one stone (rank) stronger. You can look forward to having this experience many many times!