#233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

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skydyr
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Re:

Post by skydyr »

EdLee wrote:
Hmm... which side to block, :black:(a) or :black:(b) ?
Either one makes good shape for B, so :w60: was suspect...
Maybe :black:(b) makes B just a bit over-concentrated ? If so, :black:(a) is better.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm51
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 O . . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 4 6 . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 5 . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . 8 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , b . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X . . . . X X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Being undermined when white follows up to A isn't so fun, but the lower group is already quite stable, so strengthening the upper group seems called for and may leave a lot of topside potential for black.
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by Uberdude »

EdLee, skydyr et al

I think you are both falling into the trap of following your opponent round the board. I prefer e18 as I think white should have played there now as it's big for points and a base of both groups. Ed says blocking above or below are both nice for black but that seems slack and white could easily treat it as kikashi and tenuki to the urgent e18. What is black's plan for that? Cap?

This reflects a change in thinking about invasions/reductions I had a while ago. instead of always thinking you must attack the invasion for profit now (which is an improvement on thinking you must attack to kill!) you can just think of it as a gote move which means you don't get a lot of points there for now but creates a liability for your opponent. It depends a lot on whether the move has any severe follow up which makes that area urgent. If not, as here, just tenuki to a bigger place. This way of thinking is particularly effective against the crazy invader Tygem style.
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by moyoaji »

I'm going to be fairly busy the next few days, so I don't know how much time I can devote to this game or this forum. I'd like to respond before that, but I'm still debating about my next move.

I didn't expect white to tenuki. I really don't want to respond on the right because I want to punish his tenuki somehow. My candidate moves are:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 :w10: tenuki
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . c . . . .
$$ | . . . 9 O b a . .
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . .
$$ | . . . 3 4 6 . C .
$$ | . . . 7 5 . . . .
$$ | . . 8 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Move 'a' seems like a way to attack all of the white stones. It threatens to both jump out to the marked intersection and split the top side and to link under at 'c' if white caps instead of blocking.

Move 'b' would seem to lead to a ko after white 'c', black wedges, and then white blocks.

Move 'c' seems the simplest, but it doesn't seem to do much except steal white's points. This was the move I thought white would play in response. I know this shows up in several 3-4 joseki. The problem is, I'm worried that white won't respond to it and will get to make a comfortable base on the right.

Maybe responding on the right would be best? The problem is that would 1. mean that white successfully stole sente from what I assumed was a sente move and 2. I'm not sure which side to go from. The corner seems to need support, but there is more room on the bottom side. I envision some kind of splitting attack between the top and that stone.

If I had any idea what the best move in this situation is I'd respond before taking a break from the game, but, sadly, I don't have a clue. This move has me stumped.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
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Bill Spight
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by Bill Spight »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners -
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X . . . . X X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


My sealed move. Where, I think, White should have played. I agree with Uberdude. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners -
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . 1 , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X 2 . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X . . . . X X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


But I would like to invade, looking to attack the White group on the left.

One obvious problem with that is :w62:, attacking :b61: and threatening :w64:. Not that I think that this is exactly how play would go, but it illustrates the problem.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners -
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X . . . . X X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


To take the sting out of :w62: in the previous diagram, how about :b61: here? If :w62: descends, :b63: is difficult for White. It was a little hard for me to find, because

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners -
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X . . . . X X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


White's reply is at :w62:, which is also a good spot for Black. Just not as severe as D-10. ;)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners -
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . 4 . . 5 6 . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . 3 , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . 7 . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O 1 . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X . . . . X X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


But then :w64:, making a table shape and threatening to connect, is a good defensive play. Both sides could run out, but this does not look so good for Black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners -
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X . . . . X X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


This simple hane looks better. :)
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Uberdude
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by Uberdude »

@moyoaji

Don't rush. Try to play your best. This should be a good educational moment when you review the kibitz after the game.
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners - :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X . . . . X X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

I'm back. Let's do this!

I already talked about this move in my previous post, so I'll explain why I picked it.

Today, I got to take the time to review a pro game. I chose Tang Weixing 9p vs. Yamashita Keigo 9p. I've liked Yamashita's games in the past, but this was one he lost. I almost didn't review it when I found it had the much too common Micro Chinese fuseki, but white's reply to it by calmly enclosing a corner left me interested enough to continue. In the middle game white took away black's corner and I expected to see the common joseki play out where black gets a wall on both sides of the corner, but white lives in sente. That is not quite what happened.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm74 Tang Weixing 9p (B) vs. Yamashita Keigo 9p (W)
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . X . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X X X O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . X . O . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . . . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

:b75: was the move that made me realize that I could be comfortable with my own. :w74: threatens to destroy black on the right, but instead of replaying with a joseki move that would give white sente, black instead threatens to destroy the bottom.

The move is both bold and calm. It says "Oh, you want to make a base for your corner and then come out into my potential territory? Okay. I'll just make a base for my group on the side and come out into your potential territory. Sound fair?"

In the game, white did take away all of black's points on the right. But black didn't lose because of it. And I don't think white's move was game breaking enough for me to lose either.

I think the key behind my move is that it actually does two things while white's does only one. Mine threatens to destroy while also giving my group a rock solid base. From what I can tell, after this move white cannot prevent my corner from gaining two eyes. All white is doing is destroying potential. (Another reason I didn't choose the more aggressive 'a' attack was that my corner could get counter attacked.)

So I like :b61: a lot. It isn't anything amazing or game breaking, but it is the kind of move I like to play. Calm with just enough of an edge that it politely requests a response.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by Hades12 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners -
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X . 2 . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X . . . . X X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


surely this is sente. Threatens to cut the knights move of blacks enclosure. Not sure how to follow up on the top.
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moyoaji
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners - :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X 3 2 . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X . . . . X X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


A part of me did not want to respond to this, but it would be foolish of me to ignore and possibly surrender my corner.

This move was the only one I could find. It seems like a shape point and it keeps my stones connected.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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