New Move

MJK · Post by **MJK** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:57 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Any thoughts?

DrStraw · Post by **DrStraw** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:59 pm

Yes, but I don't think I should publish them on a family forum.

MJK · Post by **MJK** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:04 pm

http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/41563
The variation which appeared in the game viewable via the link above seems to be better for white according to some professionals.

Here is one possible variation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . O 5 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 8 . . . 2 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Post by **Solomon** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:31 pm

It looks pretty stup- [see the link to pro game] -endous, perhaps a new joseki in the making.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:52 pm

It's an extravagant move, I believe Joanne Missingham was the first to play it a couple of years ago. The proverb "When in doubt, tenuki" is handy. It is on the 2nd line after all.

moyoaji · Post by **moyoaji** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:53 pm

I don't like black's reply in the game. Is there a reason black had to back off and couldn't play like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm1 $$ , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . X 1 . | $$ . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ . . . . . . O . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . X . . X O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------[/go]

I can't imagine that Lee Changho would back off without reading that this move was bad...

Variations I can see:

Perhaps black didn't want white to steal the corner?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm1 $$ , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . X 1 . | $$ . . . . . . . 2 4 . | $$ . . . . . . O 3 7 . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . X . . X O . . | $$ . . . . . . 6 5 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------[/go]

Maybe he read that white would get a wall on the bottom to work with his other corner?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm3 :w13: at 'a' $$ , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ . . . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . O 2 . . | $$ , . . . a . 3 4 . . | $$ . . . X . 5 X O 9 . | $$ . . . . . 7 6 8 0 . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------[/go]

Or maybe black didn't want to induce white to injure his corner stone?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm1 $$ , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . 8 . X 1 . | $$ . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ . . . . 9 . O 4 . . | $$ , . . . . . 7 5 . . | $$ . . . X . 6 X O . . | $$ . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------[/go]

Uberdude wrote:It's an extravagant move, I believe Joanne Missingham was the first to play it a couple of years ago. The proverb "When in doubt, tenuki" is handy. It is on the 2nd line after all.

There is also a proverb that says you should always respond to an attachment.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:56 pm

@moyoaji:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm1 $$ , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . X 1 . | $$ . . . . . . . 2 4 . | $$ . . . . . . O 3 . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . X . 5 X O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------[/go]

If white gets moves around 3 in sente 5 works a lot better and you can munch yourself a chunky corner. (in some variations you can hane at 2-2 and tombstone squeeze).

P.S. I'm not saying tenuki is best, but if someone plays this move against you in a quick game and you want some guidance how to do ok then thinking of that proverb and playing tenuki and aiming for a trade where you get the corner and they get the pincer stone is an easy way to not epic fail.

P.P.S. There's some similarity with this other strange 2nd line attachment that's also tricky (but not necessarily a bad trick in that you can do ok if they answer correctly, Su Yang 6d says he's not sure of the best answer); 4, whilst locally breaking white's shape, is falling for the bait and giving white a big corner for not enough in return. 4 as hane at 6 and take the ponnuki is probably best.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm1 $$ , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . 8 . | $$ . . . . . . . 2 3 . | $$ . . . . . . . 4 6 . | $$ , . . . . . 1 5 7 . | $$ . . . 9 . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------[/go]

P.P.P.S

moyoaji wrote: There is also a proverb that says you should always respond to an attachment.

Black didn't respond to white's attach at 3-3

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:04 pm

Joanne Missingham (Hei Jiajia) using it in 2010, the first time I saw it.

Fedya · Post by **Fedya** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:05 pm

Any thoughts?

What was wrong with the old moves?

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:27 pm

Fedya wrote:
Any thoughts?
What was wrong with the old moves?

Boring.

More seriously, in JM's game I think this standard joseki may be globally good for black (and some may even say locally). I usually like that corner though...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Black content. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 3 . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Also black can choose to play 4 at 5 and then if white pincers r7 at r9 black can stubbornly cut and fight with the iron pillar at a.

moyoaji · Post by **moyoaji** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:57 pm

Uberdude wrote:If white gets moves around 3 in sente 5 works a lot better and you can munch yourself a chunky corner. (in some variations you can hane at 2-2 and tombstone squeeze).

Interesting. I had not considered this move.

Uberdude wrote:Black didn't respond to white's attach at 3-3

Yes black didn't hane or extend, but black did respond. He made a two space extension to help his stone. Black's move was not a tenuki - it was a local response.

DrStraw · Post by **DrStraw** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:17 am

Uberdude wrote:Joanne Missingham (Hei Jiajia) using it in 2010, the first time I saw it.

Wow! If I had seen that game in isolation I think I may have thought it was a couple of weak amateurs! It's all over the place.

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