#231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

For observers:
I don't understand white's latest move.

My penultimate move was a compromise, with the primary goal of strengthening my wall. After his play at 3-3 and my descent at the 3-4, my wall is even stronger.

I'd expect him to stay away from it.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . b . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
I was expecting an approach to the remaining corner with something like 'a', or a play on the remaining open side with 'b'.

It seems that my opponent has no respect for walls.

I must change that. :rambo:

His next will almost certainly be a supporting move for his previous. When he does that, I intend to push him toward the wall.

Like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
...or this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
===========================================================

Actually, I suspect that my oponent does have proper respect for walls. He may be trying to use his over on the right.

I think that his long term plan is to build strength on the left - even if it means conceding some territory there to me, and then try to push my upper right group into a fight in the middle.

Something like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , O . . X X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
So the latest addition to my list of goals is to somehow neutralize his strength on the right. :twisted:
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by drmwc »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
As planned.
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Uberdude »

So after the right side and w came into the lower side Bill and drmwc both thought white had caught up about half a stone and I agreed. After black's exotic h2 I thought that was probably almost one stone. drmwc says "it now feels like maybe a 2 to 2.5 stone advantage for black" i.e. caught up 1.5 - 2. That's quite a big jump. Most of the blame for that would have to be on 36 at c8, but can it really be almost as bad as a pass? I suppose 34 for 35 helped white more than black too. I'll go for white's caught up by pi/2 :) .
skydyr wrote: @Uberdude
Out of curiosity, do you think black should have responded differently or with tenuki instead of :b40:? I at least considered a pincer from the other side, since black's wall is in no danger.
I vaguely considered it but ignoring a shoulder hit is just too painful I think (unless you are going to kill it). One push then pincer looks better and seems to be Joaz's plan. drmwc's 42 at e7 is so passive, did he really think black would do that or just showing a standard shoulder hit joseki as his dream?
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Uberdude »

@drmwc
Did you consider d11 jump?
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by drmwc »

Uberdude wrote:@drmwc
Did you consider d11 jump?
Briefly. I'm probably not really strong enough to distinguish between it and the move I played. With that caveat in mind, my thoughts were:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Black 42 here feels sort of natural. Then 43 as shown is good shape, but very slow. Black get a lot of territory.

As played:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 3 . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
42 as here feels a bit loose - it's quite far from my move. I can now bodge my group in sente and get first move at the top. The pushing on top moves with 43, 45 and 46 are more effective with the move played than with the jump. They add to my vague moyo-y plans.

Alternatively, for black:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Black 42 here give me more to aim at than in the first diagram - if my group is strong, it's too close to thickness.
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Uberdude »

@drmwc
I recall in the game with lovelove you said you had a heavy fighting style* in contrast to his light stone-scattering one, so extend was not unexpected :) (and would probably be my choice too).

*and that tallies with my memory of our games.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
I have a wall; he has a heavy group. I must do this, or Kato would haunt me.
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Uberdude »

@Joaz
Joaz Banbeck wrote: I must do this, or Kato would haunt me.
Does "this" mean attack or kill?
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

To observers (particularly Uberdude ):
I'm feeling much better about this game in the last two moves. Three moves ago, I made a compromise move - my second of the game :oops: - in return for a wall that I hoped to be able to use.

Much to my surprise, my opponent played closer to the wall than he had to. ( Or at least closer than I thought that he had to. ) He then followed this up by making himself heavy.
I'm not going to say that he has made a bad decision with these last two moves, but they do have some theoretical disadvatage. Presumably he sees some advantage that I don't.

Regardless, the theory is simple for me: I should push his heavy eyeless stones toward my wall, and make territory while attacking. ( Note to Uberdude, who posted while I was writing this: while killing would be preferred, I don't think that my opponent will be that cooperative. Besides, attacking is good enough. ) He will run through the center to what is ultimately mostly dame, while I will get a picket line outlining territory up top.

I'm thinking of something like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . 6 . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
...or this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . 5 . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
...or this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . 4 . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . 3 . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Bill Spight »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . 3 . 4 , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . B O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
drmwc has already indicated that he will play :w43:, which is usual. I hope that Joaz continues with :b44:. His aim should be to come out of the fight with sente and take the last big point on the top side.

After :b44: in this diagram I think that White has caught up by about 2 stones. Recent culprits are the :bc: stones. The sacrifice was an overall loss and the stones on the left side made Black overconcentrated. There is also a certain heaviness to Black's play.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . X . X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . 7 . X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This was my suggestion for :b28:. I expect that it is objectively flawed, that Black should play kikashi against the White group on the bottom side in order to build up thickness before extending on the left side.

But what happened in the game? Black made plays against the White group, but then worried about his wall. That is why he made the short extension, and why he blocked at C-04. Instead of making thickness, he made a heavy wall in his own mind, too weak to leave alone, too important to lose.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41 Light jumps
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
:wc: was not my sealed move, but now I see that it is a very practical play giving four stones. But after that I would continue with :w41: and :w43:. This is lighter than drmwc's continuation, but it seems that he admits to having a somewhat heavy style. We shall see how well Joaz can attack, assuming that he does.

Edit:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . 4 . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . 3 . 5 , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
After Joaz's post I can now project play to go this way. Note that instead of driving the White stones towards the Black wall, Black is driving them towards the White position on the right side, where they may be used to make a moyo. In any event, the result is a reduction of Black's influence instead of using it to attack. That is why, IMO, :b44: should top the tree at 45.

However, Black is building a moyo himself, in effect transfering the influence of his wall to the top side. This kind of sideways attack is not an unusual handicap strategy.

Still, isn't :w45: in this diagram a beautiful move?
Last edited by Bill Spight on Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:32 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Hi Bill,
Instead of :b44: trying to cap and split W:
Bill Spight wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . 3 . 4 , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
how do you feel about Joaz's last diagram:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . 4 . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . 3 . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
where his :b44: continues to force W to connect back,
and plant B stones facing the top ?
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Post by EdLee »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:the theory is simple for me: I should push his heavy eyeless stones toward my wall,
and make territory while attacking.
( Emphasis added. )

( For beginners. )
In JB's diagrams in post 99, he is not making territory.
Not directly, anyway. He is expanding his top moyo via his attack.
The moyo is not cash. Not yet. His hope is that in the future,
his moyo will somehow result in more cash for him.
This distinction is subtle, but important.
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . 4 . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . 3 . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
An attack can have various outcomes. For example, more cash,
more influence, a bigger moyo, strengthening a weak group,
connecting back to our friends, cutting off an enemy group,
reducing an enemy moyo, etc.
We can consider these as profit for the attacker.
(Of course, if an attack fails, the attacker may suffer a loss, too. )

In JB's variations, the profit is a bigger moyo for B, not direct cash.
Whether or not B can use his bigger moyo to bring in more cash later
depends on how B uses his moyo.
If B fails to use his moyo well, he may not end up with more cash from his attack.
If B uses his moyo well, he may.

When we discuss attack and defense, especially with beginners,
it's important to make this distinction.
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Bill Spight »

Hi, Ed.
Since Joaz posted before I did, I edited my post to comment on his :b44:. In brief, he is not driving the White stones towards the Black wall, but towards the White position on the right side, where they can help build a White moyo. However, Black is building his own moyo, so it's not a crazy plan.
The Adkins Principle:
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— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by drmwc »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
I was supposed to spend the weekend scuba diving with seals in Scotland, but Hurricane Bertha has blown it out. :sad:
Joaz' move is a reasonable idea. My reply is multi-prurpose:
1) Indirectly strengthen my group
2) Stop Black connecting, which would be a lot of territory for him
3) Give me some nice pushes later on to make Black more over-concentrated and increase my thickness.

For example, suppose black plays as shown:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 4 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
44 here strneghtens black and tries to take some terrtiroy whilst attacking. So it's not a ridiculous move. But then I can bodge up my grooup in sente and take the big point at the top.

I think this is a reasonably sound approach to ultilising my thickness - ignoring it and using it to justify that my group on the other side of the board is strong.

I have a little aji left in the diagram too:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . 3 4 O . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
This sequence mya become viable. At the moment, Black doesn't need to answer 1 at 2, so it doesn't yet work. But it may work eventually. Joaz can also side-step this issue by playing slightly more crudely earlier:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 4 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 6 7 . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . a . 8 . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
The 46-47 exchange isn't obviously good for black (although it may not be bad). I ssem to pick up an endgame move at a, although the cut at b is potential niggle. Which means maybe I shouldn't play the knight's move, I should push:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 4 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . 6 7 . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . a c 8 b . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
This line in certainly possible. I still get endgame at a, and the push at b mighjt become fun. cutting at c could also be entertaining. I don't think my group is weak.
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Post by EdLee »

How about...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
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