Playing go after a break of few years, need advice

[EdLee]

Then p3 and all the results are good for white.

Things get way off very quickly without a diagram.

$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . O X X . |
$$ . . . X 1 X . . . |
$$ . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . O X X . |
$$ . . . X 1 X . . . |
$$ . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------[/go]

If wedges, ataris. And then ?

( Black would not play your suggested Q3 for . )

[lapos]

Well, if black do not play q3 I think this sequence will appear :

$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . O X X . |
$$ . . . X 1 X 3 5 . |
$$ . . . . 2 4 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . O X X . |
$$ . . . X 1 X 3 5 . |
$$ . . . . 2 4 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------[/go]

[EdLee]

$$W
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . O X X . |
$$ . . . X 1 X 3 5 . |
$$ . . . . 2 4 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . O X X . |
$$ . . . X 1 X 3 5 . |
$$ . . . . 2 4 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------[/go]

Can you find a better move than your ?

[tekesta]

tekesta : Thanks for your comment, but did you see I was white and not black in game 1 ? It seems to me that your comment is more about my opponent mistakes. As for watching pro games, is there some "classic" games everyone should see ?

At first I did not realize that you were playing White. You punished most of your opponent's mistakes, so initially I did not find anything wrong with the way you were playing. Rather, your opponents made several gross mistakes during play. As you may already know, even if you made mistakes, your opponent would probably not have recognized them as such, let alone be able to punish them.

What EdLee said on of your first game is reasonable. Although the actual seems like a logical move, jumping to f10 is the usual response for the opponent; this helps Black expand his moyo. However, Black made contact with that White stone and that worked to your advantage. @ r10 seems more logical to me, since even after it is still possible to invade the Black moyo or at least reduce it. Generally, when you opponent sets up a large moyo, you should do the same, which is why I recommended r10. is not aggressive enough. If this move were played @ o3, the impact would be more severe; in handicap games, White attempts to disrupt Black's influence across the board. @ m3, then White jumps out to o5. A few moves later White can play k7 for some more damage.

As for "classic" games, you can choose whichever pro player you like and replay his/her game records. However, historical players such as Honinbos Shusaku and Dosaku are often recommended for beginners and amateurs in general. Shusaku, especially, since he took Black in many of his games and he is considered to be the gold standard in Go, at least among Japanese pros. (Go Seigen once replayed a collection of Shusaku's games and so did Kobayashi Koichi.) You do have some experience with the game, so I would not call you a beginner, but I still believe that you can benefit from replaying pro game records. In fact, a stronger player can derive more benefit from doing so than a beginner; the stronger player would be able to analyze local and whole-board positions more deeply.

If it interests you, Ruoshi Sun has published an English translation of Four-stone Games by Guo Bailing, in 2 volumes. If you are taking Black in a a game with fixed placement handicap stones, this book can give you some insight into how to use a 3,4, or 5 stone handicap.

[Loons]

I would like to emphasize that in game one, black's strategy to was unambiguously bad.

belonged at C6 : It was an approach|extension from thickness. Black owes a move top left so white is even thicker there than one might have thought.

Relatedly, I would argue still belongs at C6 (the standard move in that situation) though your random enclosure would suggest a play on the right for both players too, so maybe it's a 50-50 ball here.

[Bill Spight]

As for watching pro games, is there some "classic" games everyone should see ?

The Ear-reddening Game, for starters.



See http://senseis.xmp.net/?EarReddeningGame .

[Knotwilg]

Your opponents didn't really test you. The first was outplayed in fighting and the one in the handicap game wasn't trying. With moves like 104 in that game, there's not much to learn.

From the first game, one could derive you are a better fighter than your peers. That leaves the opening and the endgame. You will find plenty of advocates of opening study in this forum, preferably by playing pro games. And they may be right. About the endgame there's not much to say right now.

One thing came to surface though: you play creatively and you don't believe the opponent. What if the opponent doesn't believe you?

(BTW - in the main fight at the bottom, at abd Black could have done better. Any idea?)

Enjoy the comeback.

[lapos]

Hi again, sorry for replying so late. Thanks for all your commentaries !

Since these games I have watched a lot of Haylee's video and it is amazing how much I changed my go style! Now it's like everything could be "deformed" as my opponent shapes are not perfect. Here is my last game : you can see the transformation (the weird thing is that normaly I prefer to avoid fighting, I am more a peaceful guy !).



I win by 4.5 points. Obviously I made tsumego mistakes like and :b171: and I think I was far too aggressive. Yet I managed to win this game without really knowing how. Event after losing the corner the games seemed even, maybe my opening was good ?

@Knotwilg : What do you mean by "not believing the opponent" ?

@Bill : I know that Shushaku was an excellent player, and I am sure I can learn a lot by his games. Yet, isn't it better to watch modern go player because of the changement in opening (I am thinking about the 4-4 points now regulary played) ?

[Bill Spight]

@Bill : I know that Shushaku was an excellent player, and I am sure I can learn a lot by his games. Yet, isn't it better to watch modern go player because of the changement in opening (I am thinking about the 4-4 points now regulary played) ?

You asked for classics.

[tentano]

I like how black keeps trying to kill groups and ends up with useless walls around living white groups.

It's such a clear demonstration of how bad it is to try to kill everything.

I am in the same stage, btw. Too much tsumego, and I can't help myself.

[lapos]

You asked for classics.

You are right I forgot

I like how black keeps trying to kill groups and ends up with useless walls around living white groups.

It's such a clear demonstration of how bad it is to try to kill everything.

I am in the same stage, btw. Too much tsumego, and I can't help myself.

Truth is, I didn't really want to kill everything, just make them run and use what I got by attacking them. Problem is, white let so many groups without clear base that I ended up attacking everything haha.

Here is my last game :



After this game I told myself to work a lot more on tsumego. It seems my new style of playing require it

[tentano]

attacking everything

Yes.

ATTACK EVERYTHING!

[skydyr]

Some comments:

The first really big tactical thing I see in this game is at . White just threw two stones down with no clear eyespace in an area that black dominates, but then black tenukied. My automatic move is the one space jump at E9. White needs to run or give up his group, and if he runs, the top will become black's territory naturally and the left side group will become strong. Black has another missed opportunity at .

Killing in the top right is good, but it does affect the right side group, so you may want to play a fixing move there at some point.

and feel good, but they do set black up for trouble with the left side group later.

At one space higher connects the groups.

What is the purpose of 119? I'd much rather push through the hole white fixes at 120, or play P9 and push white before asking him how his upper-right group is planning on living.

That said, in the whole game black never challenged white on the bottom half of the board. White played the high chinese, which is A) not territorial and B) has a clear aim of developing the right side and center. Rather than play I'd prefer to take a big point on the right side, or approach the bottom left immediately. Later on, when you can take sente (opportunities for which kind of disappeared after ) an attachment under or to the side of L3 would also have been a good way to set up a viable group there.

[lapos]

Thanks for your comments !

What is the purpose of 119?

I don't know I am white in this game

[Charles Matthews]

@Bill : I know that Shushaku was an excellent player, and I am sure I can learn a lot by his games. Yet, isn't it better to watch modern go player because of the changement in opening (I am thinking about the 4-4 points now regulary played) ?

You asked for classics.

Hmmm, the ear-reddening play is a supposed brilliancy; but I recall Kitani thought it a bit slow?

A game I think is a classic is the one Takagawa won against Sakata, getting into the Honinbo final and launching his reign of nine years. Google has just shown me it is David Sigaty's favourite:

http://gobase.org/studying/gallery/?id=furikawari

Perhaps someone has the SGF. There was an old magazine commentary in English, I recall. But it is one of the games where the main point is to get the flow, rather than second-guess the pro.