Can you read diagrams?

daal · Post by **daal** » Sat Nov 07, 2015 9:33 am

What I mean is, when you look at a diagram with numbered moves, how well do you understand it? For example, when you see a diagram with 5 numbered moves,

, how easily can you tell why each move was played? How about when you see a diagram with 10 moves? When you look at such a diagram in a book, does each move make sense to you, can you imagine the whole sequence?

I personally enjoy reading go books, but when I read them in bed or in the bathroom, I don't get much out of them if the diagrams have more than 3 moves. Apparently, people like me should be playing out all the diagrams on a board if they want to get anything out of them.

This fact was demonstrated to me recently, when a friend of mine taught me a joseki sequence with a few variations that he had learned in a book. I understood it well enough to apply it to my advantage in a few of my games. I liked it enough that I went out and bought the book, but after reading through a few chapters, I realized that if I wanted to apply the stuff to my own games, I was going to have to get my board out.

Pio2001 · Post by **Pio2001** » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:12 am

For me, it all depends on the difficulty level. If I can't understand any of the 4 first moves, then I switch to an easier book.

xed_over · Post by **xed_over** » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:33 am

I have a hard time understanding the moves from just reading the diagrams.

If I want to internalize it, I have to apply it by playing it out on a board.

But its kinda the same as trying to read out variations in my head for games or go problems. Until I see them played out on a board, the stones just kinda get lost in the fog. For books, its kinda the same only backwards... the stones are already there, and I have to imagine them not there as I try to work through the variation.

I think we just need more practice.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:18 am

Diagrams can be deceptive. You can look at a diagram with 13 moves and say, yeah, yeah, yeah. But then you miss the same kind of play in a real game.

I now think that it is a good idea to memorize a lot of the diagrams you see in books or magazines.

sybob · Post by **sybob** » Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:19 pm

No.
I can not read diagrams, not after

This is the reason I do not study from books. I have to play the sequence on the board.
I just hope I am not the only one.

DrStraw · Post by **DrStraw** » Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:29 pm

The problem with playing it out on the board is that I have to get out my board and stones, which have not been used in over 10 years, clear a space to put them and get all the cats out of the house. If there is a cat in the house you can guarantee one of them will want to see what this new toy is. No, I just learned to read a diagram in a book. If each diagram has more than about 20 moves I just get another book.

Galation · Post by **Galation** » Sat Nov 07, 2015 6:22 pm

Same problem mon ami!

It is improving with time, but I still mostly like reading Yuan Zhou's books: there are many diagrams with usually no more than 5, very well described, moves.
I completely lack the ability to read and understand the standard Joseki books

DrStraw wrote:The problem with playing it out on the board is that I have to get out my board and stones, which have not been used in over 10 years, clear a space to put them and get all the cats out of the house.

A young child can be a problem too

I also use my 7 inches android tablet to help me with this:
it is easy to carry (just the same size of most books) and it saves moves, positions and comments.
My favorite APP is Marc Oldenhof: BW-GO

joellercoaster · Post by **joellercoaster** » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:36 pm

Nope.

I even struggle with "beginner" level diagrams aimed at kyu players like myself. It's a real problem - this is the most efficient way to get the sequence into a book, but it's really hard for me to read. Jasiek's First Fundamentals actually has a lot of useful stuff in it for a newbie, but until I found a way to play the sequences out on a board I really didn't get full value out of it.

This is still a problem for me... I want to read go books on the subway but every time I hit a diagram my brain goes to mush. Just don't have the reading brain yet.

Might be worth training as a skill in its own right

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 1:13 am

daal wrote:how well do you understand it?

Hi daal, I think your question already captures the essence -- like Pio2001, I feel it's a continuum.

On one end of the spectrum, some pros -- maybe the currently active, top pros --
can study a pro game record (the entire game shown in one diagram)
for a few minutes and they can visualize and memorize
the first 100, 200, or even 300 or more moves; perhaps the entire pro game, depending on the game itself.
So after a few minutes of study, they can instantly replay from memory the first said N moves.

Maybe some less active pros have a smaller N, etc. -- already, we see a continuum, even at pro level.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Dia. 1 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

For Diagram 1, maybe it's pretty basic for many people with a few weeks' experience.
But for a complete beginner who is just introduced to Go for the very first time after 3 minutes,
maybe it's still some work (they have not yet grasped the landmark star points)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Dia. 2 $$-------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . 2 . . . . | $$ . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Dia. 3 $$-------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . 3 . . 5 . . | $$ . . . . . 1 . 4 . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Diags. 2 and 3 stroll along the continuum space.

And we have everything in between: depending on the person and the particular diagram,
some will be able to visualize it for 10 or more moves (N),
while others will need to play it out on a real board.

I enjoy the process and experience of using a real set,
so I play it out on a real board as much as possible.

Calvin Clark · Post by **Calvin Clark** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 10:24 am

It is not so much the length of these sequence, but if there are multiple removals then the diagram does not resemble the end position, which can be very confusing. For me, sequence in time such as watching a video or a live teacher is much worse, because there is no time to think "what if?" With a diagram you can at least think about and it and it is still there. For example, I love An-younggil's Sgf commentaries, but his videos are just entertainment. To get something out of a video I would have to view it several times.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 12:00 pm

To get something out of a video I would have to view it several times.

This is expected, natural, and normal.

It's the same with a book or an article: how many people can read a book (not just on Go but any non-trivial subject) only once and memorize or fully digest every detail ? Probably very few people can do that. Of course if we really want to learn something, we pause the video lesson, maybe replay the sequence on a real set, rewind the section; rinse and repeat.

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