21. Magicwand (3d) vs. wms (1d)

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wms
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Re: malkovich #21 - magicwand vs. wms

Post by wms »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 55 FOREVER!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . |
$$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . , . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I thought about other moves, but this one seems most effective at limiting the aji that the corner can produce. I need to get a lot of points either on the left or the bottom to have any hope here.
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Re: malkovich #21 - magicwand vs. wms

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 55 FOREVER!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . |
$$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . , . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X W . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: malkovich #21 - magicwand vs. wms

Post by wms »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 55 FOREVER!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . |
$$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . , . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X O B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think I can still kill the corner here and keep W from getting a base on the bottom.
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Re: malkovich #21 - magicwand vs. wms

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 55 FOREVER!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . |
$$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . W . . . , . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

he is making another mistake
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Re: malkovich #21 - magicwand vs. wms

Post by mic »

@magicwand

he is making another mistake

Could you elaborate on this a bit?
Go is easy: don't play bad moves.
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Re: malkovich #21 - magicwand vs. wms

Post by Magicwand »

mic wrote:@magicwand

he is making another mistake

Could you elaborate on this a bit?


this is a variation i expect from my current game.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 55 FOREVER!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . |
$$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . W . . 4 , . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . 1 X O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X O X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


now this is a variation i expected which should be a correct move.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 55 FOREVER!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . |
$$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . 1 . . . , . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X O b . 2 . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X O . a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

now wrong variation: by capturing one stone i atari from top and right. that feels good.
specially from the top.
correct variation: black has more influence on top because it is solid. and can attack a or b depends on the situation. (basically on top picture has more flexability than bottom picutre)

WHAT THE HACK IS FLEXABILITY?
ok..i will use another word. flexability is a word i used because it is a direct translation off korean go term.
Resiliency is a term that fits the english language.
seeing the resiliency is another skill that you have to require that only can be achieved through an experience i think. at least above picture i tell you the answer.. so you can try to feel yourself that top picture is better than bottom for white.

i hope it helps and let me know if you need further help.
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The greater the unknown"
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Re: malkovich #21 - magicwand vs. wms

Post by mic »

@magicwand

Thanks, that explanation helped a lot!
Go is easy: don't play bad moves.
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Re: malkovich #21 - magicwand vs. wms

Post by wms »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 55 FOREVER!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . |
$$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . . . , . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . B X O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It was this or capture. Now I expect W to atari my 2nd line stone, then make a doule tiger's mouth. That will reduce my bottom a lot, but in gote at least so I get to go do something else.
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Re: malkovich #21 - magicwand vs. wms

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 55 FOREVER!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . |
$$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . . . , . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . X X O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X O X W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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The greater the unknown"
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Re: malkovich #21 - magicwand vs. wms

Post by deja »

@magicwand - I also want to thank you for the above explanation. You've been calling this game very well so far. I can't wait for wms's moves just to see how close you call them.
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Re: malkovich #21 - magicwand vs. wms

Post by wms »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 55 FOREVER!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . |
$$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . . . , . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . X X O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Where do we show captures? I guess now it is 0-1.
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Re: malkovich #21 - magicwand vs. wms

Post by SpongeBob »

wms wrote:Now I expect W to atari my 2nd line stone, then make a doule tiger's mouth.
Gasp. :shock:
A double tiger's mouth?? How often did I read in books that the double tiger's mouth is wrong here - see also magicwand's explanation above (resilience).

It seems that wms is a more the intuitive type of player who relies a lot on his own insticts and reasoning instead of reading books and copying moves from there. Very nice to see here how Mr. KGS is playing Go. Thanks for sharing.
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Re: malkovich #21 - magicwand vs. wms

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 55 FOREVER!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . |
$$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . . W , . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . X X O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: malkovich #21 - magicwand vs. wms

Post by Phelan »

SpongeBob wrote:
wms wrote:Now I expect W to atari my 2nd line stone, then make a doule tiger's mouth.
Gasp. :shock:
A double tiger's mouth?? How often did I read in books that the double tiger's mouth is wrong here - see also magicwand's explanation above (resilience).

It seems that wms is a more the intuitive type of player who relies a lot on his own insticts and reasoning instead of reading books and copying moves from there. Very nice to see here how Mr. KGS is playing Go. Thanks for sharing.

I thought the same. I just recently read it again in a book. Efficient connection, but awful shape because of the peeps. They usually recommend playing far away and sacrificing part of it to make sabaki.

I also agree with you, it's pretty interesting to see how wms plays. :)
a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
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Re: malkovich #21 - magicwand vs. wms

Post by Kirby »

Phelan wrote:
SpongeBob wrote:
wms wrote:Now I expect W to atari my 2nd line stone, then make a doule tiger's mouth.
Gasp. :shock:
A double tiger's mouth?? How often did I read in books that the double tiger's mouth is wrong here - see also magicwand's explanation above (resilience).

It seems that wms is a more the intuitive type of player who relies a lot on his own insticts and reasoning instead of reading books and copying moves from there. Very nice to see here how Mr. KGS is playing Go. Thanks for sharing.

I thought the same. I just recently read it again in a book. Efficient connection, but awful shape because of the peeps. They usually recommend playing far away and sacrificing part of it to make sabaki.

I also agree with you, it's pretty interesting to see how wms plays. :)


I think that magicwand's move is probably better than the tiger's mouth - it's good to stay light and flexible here, I think. But I wouldn't say that a double tiger's mouth would be as bad here as it is in the examples that often show it. The two black stones to the bottom right aren't terribly menacing, so I don't think white has to be worried about survival here, even if he did the double tigers mouth.

So basically, I think that the double tiger's mouth is probably inferior to magicwand's move, but I don't think that it's totally unplayable on this board, compared to the examples in which it's typically portrayed to be bad (in particular, those examples usually show examples where white might have some difficulty living unless he/she plays very lightly.).

Here's an example of a popular joseki that uses a double tiger's mouth that can be exploited by peeps:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B A popular 3-4 joseki
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ . . . 3 . 2 9 4 5 . |
$$ , . . . . . 6 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W and it's continuation...
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 6 . X . . |
$$ . . . X . O X 2 X . |
$$ , . . . 4 5 O X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . 3 . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


Here, black doesn't take advantages of both peeps, but still has the option of doing so. Instead of making a the double tiger's mouth at 3, white could have tried to play out further to try something that seemed more flexible, but in this particular case, it wasn't necessary.

In the current game, I think that flexibility and "resilience" is more important than a stronger connection when compared to the joseki, but I don't think that it's totally unplayable, since the bottom right stones aren't that strong.
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