(Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries

Shenoute · Post by **Shenoute** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:14 am

Marcel Grünauer wrote:
Shenoute wrote:* 黒六二は今度白からこの點に差込まては收拾出来ない。

收拾 shuushu the act of picking up (meaning found in a 1904 dictionary), modern ones seem to translate it by "controlling, putting in order"
出来deki to happen
nai negation of aru
This is just a stab in the dark, but http://cjjc.weblio.jp/content/%E6%94%B6%E6%8B%BE says that one of 收拾's meanings, if translated from Chinese, is "（人を）片づける，消す，殺す". So, "tidy up", "clean up", "kill".

And 出来る means "to be able to do". So my guess is that the sentence might mean "As for Black 62, if this time White would play [sashikomi] at this point, Black wouldn't be able to tidy up [i.e., handle it]".

I like your proposal very much. I think I'll refrain from making any hypotheses in the future

I'll keep looking for examples of 收拾 used in a go related context, maybe that will making its exact meaning clearer.

John Fairbairn · Post by **John Fairbairn** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:51 am

黒六二は今度白からこの點に差込まては收拾出来ない。

There's a major typo here. The verb form is the adversative passive and it means that if Black 'suffers' the sashikomi (a go technical term) by White he cannot cope.

Dekinai has nothing to do with aru. It's the negative of dekiru, which here is the potential of suru.

Also it's shuushuu not shuushu.

Shenoute · Post by **Shenoute** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:21 pm

Typo corrected in the post.
Thank you for your comments, they are very helpful.

Shenoute · Post by **Shenoute** » Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:49 am

*白八九を怠り、黒ろ、と下られると一?の眼形が無くなつて終ふ。

怠り okotaru to neglect/omit, here in the -ri form (conjunctive/continuative/connective)
下られる sagarareru, passive of sagaru to go down
下られるとと to is used to link clauses here
眼形 gankei eyeshape
無くなる nakunaru to get lost/reduced to zero
無くなつて nakunatte, the -te form connects sentences "xyz then abc"
終ふ ofu to end/to die, equivalent to the modern owaru

Translation
"When one neglects

and is go-downed with black ろ, the eyshape ??? is reduced to zero/is lost, then it is over."
"When one neglects

and suffers the descent of black ろ, ..."

I can't read the kanji after 一 with certainty. A promising possibility might be to read it 一団 ichidan "group". 一団の眼形 gives a lot of (in fact, almost only) go related results when googled. Apparently 団 has an older form 團 which would fit the shape of the character in the book rather well.

> "When 89 is neglected and black goes down at ろ (the marked intersection), the eyeshape of the group is lost and it is over."

I wondered if 終ふ could mean here "it (i. e. the group) dies". My thinking is that there might still be some room for white to escape, but even if it lives the attack will be too sever for white to recover (for instance, giving black enough stones in the center area to harass the other white group at the bottom), so I chose the more neutral "it is over". But, well, maybe for players of this level the kill is as good as certain...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm89 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O . X X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . X . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . X . . O X . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . , . O X . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O . X . . | $$ | . O O . O . . . X O O . X X O . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . X X X X O . X O O O . . . | $$ | . . . X . X X O X X O . X O X , O . . | $$ | . . O . O . X O O O O . X 1 X O . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X . . . . . . . M . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Shenoute · Post by **Shenoute** » Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:22 am

Yes, when I started this thread I wondered if I should type it as っ but then I decided on simply reproducing the text as printed in 打碁選集.

John Fairbairn · Post by **John Fairbairn** » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:34 am

終ふ is the equivalent of modern shimau and is just a way of emphasising the main verb in the -te form. It's like the English use of adverbs to make expressive adverbial verbs (e.g. listen up, fall down instead of just listen or fall).

You have also omitted the meaning of 一: the whole (group).

A tip: I used to joke with my daughter, when she was studying Japanese. that once you can reliably work out the subject of a Japanese text you are PhD standard. It's only a slight joke, and most important is to ignore those who say some Japanese sentences don't have subjects. Assume EVERY Japanese sentence has a subject. It may very, very often be omitted but it still has one.

In go, it's useful to treat a sentence such as 白八九を怠り as ellipsis for 白は白八九を怠り, the fact that the actual sentence begins with 白 being the signpost that tells us what to supply. There is a lot of similar signposting, e.g. ところが = 'but' is usually a signpost telling us that the (unmentioned) subject has changed, and verbs such as kureru and morau have a similar function.

This makes the translation more natural (and accurate): If White omits 89 and so suffers Black's descent to B, the eye shape of his whole group will be lost.

(Note the 'will' - you have to supply the extra English tenses in classical texts even more than you do in translating modern Japanese, but you will already be familiar with that from Chinese).

Presumably this has the consonant-doubler っ, so "無くなって", not "無くなつて".

Chiisai tsu is only modern spelling. The old texts don't use the small ya yu yo etc, nor do they even make the sha shu sho sounds the same way, and the way can vary (e.g. shi-u or shi-fu) - you need to know the etymology if you want to be accurate. So copying the original as Shenoute is doing seems best.

Shenoute · Post by **Shenoute** » Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:41 am

Thanks John Fairbairn !

Diagram 2 (p.4)

* 黒二で若し三、と受ければ白も十七と應ずる位のものであつたらう乎。

若し moshi if/in case/supposing
受ければ ukereba conditional of ukeru
應ずる ouzuru answer, reply, accept
位 kurai
もの mono thing
乎 ka question mark

This is a hard one, with two main problems:
- what to do with kurai no mono? Literally, it seems to mean "a thing of the sort", "something like" but I found references online to an idiom kurai no mono having something to do with "only, the only thing"
- -rau ka, Based on Henderson's (Handbook of Japanese Grammar) example mono no nijuudo mo yattarō ka "I probably tried it twenty times, I guess", I take it as indicating probability. But comments in the same book make me wonder wether this should be understood as expressing doubt.

So at this stage I have several possible translations (none of which even close to the solution I guess

). The first two differ by the nuance given by kurai no mono and the last one takes -rau ka as expressing doubt rather than probability.

Translation(s)
"At black 2, if (black) defends with 3, there was probably a thing of the sort of white also answering with 17, I guess." >

"

, if black defends at 3, white would also probably have answered with something like 17."
"

, if black defends at 3, white also could probably only have answered with 17."

"

, if black defends at 3, I doubt white would also have answered with something like 17."

(17 being the marked intersection)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . O O . X X O O . . M . . 3 . . | $$ | . . X , . X . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . X . . O X . . | $$ | . . . X X . . X O O . O X . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . . . X . . . . . X . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . O . X . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O . X . . | $$ | . O O . O . . . X O O . X X O . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . X X X X O . X O O O . . . | $$ | . . . X . X X O X X O . X O X , O . . | $$ | . . O . O . X O O O O . X O X O . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X . . . . . 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

John Fairbairn · Post by **John Fairbairn** » Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:28 am

The idea is "Had Black, instead of 3, responded at 2, I can't imagine there would have been anything better for White than to answer here, too, at 17."

Kurai no mono does mean 'the only thing/person' but in the special sense of this is the best, and so only sensible, alternative. You can think of it as implying the ellipsis ga aru

The ending -ou ka usually means "I wonder if", i.e. it is a signal that the subject is the speaker.

Shenoute · Post by **Shenoute** » Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:35 am

Thanks.

The next comment is shorter.

* 白六五が筋である。

Translation
"

is the suji."

I chickened out and did not translate suji. The page at Sensei's Library emphasizes that suji does not refer merely to one single move and has "a strong dynamic flavour". If so, is it right to suppose that the main raison d'être of the comment here is not as much to point at 65 as a local good move than to underline the fact that it is not played immediately but only after the exchanges 55-64, making the top stronger?

(55 is the marked stone)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm56 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O O O . | $$ | . . . . O O . X X O O . . O . X O X . | $$ | . . X , . X . X . X . . 8 7 . X X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X . 4 6 . 9 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 3 W . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X 2 1 X . . X . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . O O O O . . . O X . . . | $$ | . O O O X . X O . O X X X . . O X . . | $$ | . O X X X . . X O O . O X . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . . . X . . . X . X . . O . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . X O O O X . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X O . X O O . X . . | $$ | . O O O O . . . X O O . X X O . X . . | $$ | . O X X . . X X X X O . X O O O . X . | $$ | O O O X X X X O X X O . X O X , O O . | $$ | . O O X O . X O O O O . X O X O . X . | $$ | O X X O . O X . . . . . X O X O O . O | $$ | . . X . O . X . 0 . . . . X X X O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Shenoute · Post by **Shenoute** » Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:47 am

* 黒七十乃至白七九の結果は格別白が損を被つた譯でもない。

結果 kekka result/consequence
格別 kakubetsu particular(ly)/special(ly)/exceptional(ly)
損 sokonau loss/disadvantage
被る koumuru to suffer/receive/sustain
譯 wake, variant of 訳, jisho.org has "conclusion from reasoning/judgement or calculation based on something read or heard; reason/cause/meaning; circumstances/situation"
demo nai "not exactly"

Translation
"As for the result of

to

, this is not exactly a situation/conclusion (of) particularly-white-having-suffered-loss" > "As to the result of the sequence

-

, it cannot really be said that white in particular incurred a loss."

(the marked stones are captured during the sequence)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm70 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O O O . | $$ | . . . . O O . X X O O . . O . X O X . | $$ | . . X , . X . X . X . . O X . X X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X . O O . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X O X X . . X . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . O O O O . . . O X . . . | $$ | . O O O X . X O . O X X X . . O X . . | $$ | . O X X X . . X O O O O X . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . . . X . . . X . X . . O . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . X O O O X . . . O X 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X O . X O O . X 8 0 | $$ | . O O O O . . . X O O . X X O . X 6 . | $$ | . O X X . . X X X X O . X O O O 4 B 2 | $$ | O O O X X X X O X X O . X O X 3 O O B | $$ | . O O X O . X O O O O . X O X W 7 X O | $$ | O X X O . O X . . . . . X O X W W 1 O | $$ | . . X . O . X . O . . . X X X X W 5 . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Shenoute · Post by **Shenoute** » Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:13 am

Last comment, it is not exactly about the game but about a mistake in the game record. I think I've got the gist of it but there are several things in the ast part of the sentence that I do not understand clearly - especially the double を at the end (is there an ellipse here?) and the use of を after an adjective like yoshinaki.

Diagram 3
*黒四十の劫立てに先だつて、前譜黒六四以降のどの手かで黒い白ろの交換が打れたのであるが、その正しき手順を今、確かめるに由無きを深く遺憾とする。

劫立 koudate ko threat
先だつて sendatte recently/previously; in combination with ni "prior to"?
前譜 preceding diagram
以降 ikou since
どの手か dono te ka some move
no dearu litt. there is (a situation) of...?
交換 koukan exchange
-reta passive past
dearu ga with ga = but
正しき tadashiki correct
手順 tejun process/procedure/sequence
今 ima now
確かめる to check/confirm/make sure
由無き yoshinaki absurd
深く遺憾とす "it is to be deeply regretted"
X o 深く遺憾とす I deeply regret X/it is to be deeply regretted that...

(Very tentative) Translation
"Prior to black's ko threat of

, the exchange of black い and white ろ had been made at some move after

of the previous diagram, but now the correct sequence (is forgotten?), it is to be deeply regretted that there was a mistake (an absurdity?) in the checking."
> At some point before black's ko threat at

, the exchange of black い and white ろ had been made but..."

What I find interesting is the various ways editors have dealt with the problem. SGF files I've seen place the exchange い/ろ exchange just before the move 40/41 of the diagram in 打碁選集, producing a different game record.

The editors of the Chinese edition of Shusai's Complete Games placed the moves but did not number them, which must be troublesome to people replaying the game

.

(the black い-white ろ exchange is marked a-b; 64 of the previous diagram is the marked stone)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm40 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O O O . . . . b 1 O O O . | $$ | . X . X O O X X X O O . . O a X O . O | $$ | . O X X O O O X . X . . O X . X X O . | $$ | O . O X X O X . X . O O . B . . . X O | $$ | . O O O X X . . . X X O . . . X . X . | $$ | X O X X X . X X X X O X X . . X . . . | $$ | O X X . . . . O O O O . . . O X . . . | $$ | O O O O X . X O . O X X X . . O X . . | $$ | . O X X X . . X O O O O X . . O X . X | $$ | . O . . . . X . . . X X X . . O . X O | $$ | . O X . . . . X O O O X . . . O X X O | $$ | . . . . . . O X X X O . X O O . X O O | $$ | . O O O O . . . X O O . X X O . X O . | $$ | . O X X . . X X X X O . X O O O O . O | $$ | O O O X X X X O X X O . X O X X O O . | $$ | O O O X O X X O O O O . X O X . X X O | $$ | O X X O . O X X O . . . X O X . . X O | $$ | . O X . O X X . O . O . X X X X . X . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Life In 19x19

(Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries

Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries

Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries

Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries

Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries

Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries

Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries

Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries

Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries

Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries

Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries

Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries