No more love for Kobayashi Fuseki

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Re: No more love for Kobayashi Fuseki

Post by John Fairbairn »

That is on initial star point nearly 80% play on adjacent starpoint since 2005, while only 1 in 8 before 1990.


Assuming I've understood you correctly, the GoGoD database gives very different figures.

With initial 4-4 for 2006-2011 we have 6791 games, and in 4289 White answered on the adjacent corner 4-4, that is only 63.1% (if you include 2005, the figure is 63.4%). If you restrict the search to 2010 and 2011 we have 64.6% - not sure whether that's enough to claim a significant trend.

For games before 1990, our figure is 11%, which is at least in the same ball park (1 in 8 = 13%), but I'm puzzled why there is such a big discrepancy for recent games. For all games 2006-11 we have 13612, out of a total database of over 66,000 games.
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Re: No more love for Kobayashi Fuseki

Post by tapir »

logan wrote:So, I do not think that she was fully privy to all of the variations that I am referring to. For reference, here is one base position where Black begins to have a superior position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ A or B are fine
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O a . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X b . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White can prevent such a result with about every move...

1) Not play on the star point in the fourth corner (if you started in the adjacent corner that is).
2) Pincer the kobayashi approach (that is the way I play, easy to handle, sure not to have a kobayashi fuseki).
3) Don't play the far low approach, but the instant invasion (in "mini"-kobayashi) or the far high approach

One really should start looking into the variations at the early branches before studying the very complicated variations after settling for one of those branches, imo.

@JF Actual numbers for mastergo (not yet updated to include most of 2010 games) is 3909 of 5886 = 66.4% (still higher than GoGod numbers though, my mind processed 4000/5000 obviously :)) for >= 2005 and 1021 of 8333 = 12.3% for <=1990. I would not claim a trend in the last years (not looked into the data) but from 1/8 to 2/3 there is a clear jump in preference happening between 1990 and 2000. Which I would relate to the whole board opening trends.

A year by year list would be nice.
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Re: No more love for Kobayashi Fuseki

Post by ez4u »

tapir wrote:A year by year list would be nice.


Attached are the results from the Summer 2010 edition of GoGoD. In GoGoD the databases for older games represent longer time periods but from 1980 there is a database for each year. For interpreting the chart, take 1970-1975 as an example. There were 2093 total games in the database, of which 12% started with two consecutive plays on star points. Three percent of these (8 games) were played on adjacent corners while 97 percent (244 games) were played on opposite corners. This 97% - 3% split happened to be the greatest difference in any single database.
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Re: No more love for Kobayashi Fuseki

Post by Dusk Eagle »

Wow, that's quite an interesting change as time goes on. Did something happen in 1999 that could explain the huge shift we see there? In '98, nearly half of all games with hoshi on move one and two were played with those moves in opposite corners, but after that we only get above 35% in that category once.

The database total column is also quite interesting, especially with the huge drop in popularity of double-hoshi in 2004-2008 and subsequent increase. I could be completely wrong, but I wonder if 2004-2008 were more popular for playing something like the Mini-Chinese, and 2009-on saw a decrease in popularity of that opening.

Anyway, very interesting information. Thanks ez4u.
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Re: No more love for Kobayashi Fuseki

Post by ez4u »

If we look deeper into the information in the database, we see that the situation is fairly complex. What follows is a bit of a story, an imaginative interpretation of what may or may not be real patterns in too few games. It is certainly an over simplification because the pro world is constantly competitive with many different ideas being tried all the time. To make sense of all the games presented in the databases is impossible. It is also rather hard to research thoroughly in a reasonable time with the tools available. But enjoy it anyway! :)

Nevertheless and in broad terms... before we get to '98 we should look back to 1991. Notice the abortive shift from opposite to adjacent that occurred in that year. It looks almost as if White started to change to the adjacent play and then backed off. This is exactly what did happen, but Black was the driver of that change. It was the result of a strategic battle around plays 3 and 4! Around this time Black 3 was most often played at Q3 in the lower right, in preparation for a standard Chinese fuseki, an 'old Kobayashi' enclosure at R5, or a new Kobayashi approach play in the lower left. Against this White played mainly the other star point on the left, so it made little difference whether White played first in the upper or bottom left. However, around 1989-1990 White began playing at C4 instead of D4 on play 4, threatening to play E3 next if Black continued with a Chinese or old Kobayashi. The result was that Black gave up on B4 at Q3! From 1992 through 1995 the most common B4 steadily reverted to the star point in the lower right. This was not a reversion to the earlier interest in playing San-Ren-Sei (except for people like Takemiya). The middle 90’s were an era of Ni-Ren-Sei, where Black typically made an approach move against one of the White star points on the left rather than playing again on the right. Meanwhile as Black shifted away from a heavy emphasis on Q3, interestingly enough White tended to revert to choosing the opposite star point rather than the adjacent one - seemingly without Black playing tit-for-tat and reverting in turn to Q3.

This changed again around 1998. Why? All along, one choice for black on B3 was the play at R4. Through 1996 the reason for playing there was mainly to enclose the lower right with P3 after a White play on the other left side star point. Suddenly in 1997 the most frequently chosen strategy for Black on B5 shifted to an approach in the lower left in order to initiate the mini-Chinese. The following year, the most common choice for B3 was R4 instead of Q4. White reacted immediately by shifting W2 solidly to the adjacent star point in order to preserve flexibility in the choice of W4. We cannot say, "the rest is history", rather it is a story that is still being written.

The years immediately after 1999 saw resurgence in B3 at Q3, as interest in the new Kobayashi created a new, major branch at B5. Although the mini-Chinese was probably the most heavily explored strategy for Black, the combination of the Chinese and the Kobayashi made B3 at Q3 the most frequent beginning to the game. The situation became chaotic in 2002 with the shift to 6.5 point komi. In that year no major fuseki for Black had a winning percentage in the GoGoD database. Nevertheless, Q3 continued as the most frequent choice for B3. This changed finally around 2007 as interest in the Kobayashi has in fact declined. The database reflects the rise and now the fall of the Kobayashi at the professional level - in line with the subject of this thread. The Chinese and variants are back as the principal idea underlying Black’s Q3. Who knows where we will be in ten more years.
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Re: No more love for Kobayashi Fuseki

Post by IKnowNotGo »

This topic is slightly old now, but I think it deserves attention so I will provide an update on the "why don't pros play this anymore" question. The answer is quite simple, some of them still do. Takao Shinji played the Kobayashi Fuseki in the first game of the Meijin Title Match on August 30, 2016, and won against Iyama Yuuta. Still played in title matches! If that's not love, I don't know what is.

As a point of interesting history, the "Kobayashi Fuseki", (as far as I am knowledgeable) was first played by Kitani in his jubango against Go Seigen in Kamakura on May 8, 1941. Kitani won by resignation. Earliest use of the formation that I am aware of.
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Re: No more love for Kobayashi Fuseki

Post by Uberdude »

And recently many top pros have been doing the one-space high approach against the Kobayashi, which was regarded as a bad approach for a long time (see http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 25#p211025).
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Re: No more love for Kobayashi Fuseki

Post by John Fairbairn »

As a point of interesting history, the "Kobayashi Fuseki", (as far as I am knowledgeable) was first played by Kitani in his jubango against Go Seigen in Kamakura on May 8, 1941. Kitani won by resignation. Earliest use of the formation that I am aware of.
Are you mixing some things up, perhaps? The Kamakura game does not feature what I think most people consider to be the Kobayashi Fuseki, and even if it does, by some change of definition, it would be Go Seigen who initiated it in that game (as Black). And that opening was not novel anyway (although it was Go who introduced several years earlier). I just happen to be familiar with these things as author of the book "Kamakura."

The Kobayashi Fuseki (in the form I think most people understand it) was indeed first played by Kobayashi, but I think he played it only four or five times and abandoned it very early. Without checking, I think Cho Hun-hyeon may have become its biggest advocate, but a very wide range of players have tried it and, as you rightly say, it is still in use. The Takao-Iyama game (which is indeed a Kobayashi Fuseki) is just one of about two dozen examples this year alone, I believe.
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Re: No more love for Kobayashi Fuseki

Post by shoryuu »

John Fairbairn wrote: The Kobayashi Fuseki (in the form I think most people understand it) was indeed first played by Kobayashi, but I think he played it only four or five times and abandoned it very early. Without checking, I think Cho Hun-hyeon may have become its biggest advocate, but a very wide range of players have tried it and, as you rightly say, it is still in use. The Takao-Iyama game (which is indeed a Kobayashi Fuseki) is just one of about two dozen examples this year alone, I believe.
That's what happens when you 'think' and 'not check'. I mean I do it too, but I don't get things grossly wrong! 4-5 times?!?! That's absurd! He played it countless times in his prime! Okay you can count it if you really want to but it's gonna be a headache because it's not anywhere close to 4-5 times.
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Re: No more love for Kobayashi Fuseki

Post by Kirby »

I think it would be useful to define what pattern we are referring to before arguing about how often Kobayashi used it.

These are popular:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . 7 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . 7 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
But even this could be considered a "Kobayashi Opening" from some perspectives:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: No more love for Kobayashi Fuseki

Post by shoryuu »

Kirby wrote:I think it would be useful to define what pattern we are referring to before arguing about how often Kobayashi used it.
[/go]
The assistance is appreciated but there is no debate. Even the the standard Kobayashi alone has been played many times by Kobayashi.
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Re: No more love for Kobayashi Fuseki

Post by Uberdude »

The normal Kobayashi (first of Kirby's diagrams, exact formation of black's 4 stones, white 4-4 in lower left can answer high or low, white top left single stone somewhere in corner) has over 20 hits from Kobayshi Koichi in my GoGoD with a big run of them in the 80s to early 90s. He still used it a few times in the 2000s. He also did it sometimes as white, and had it played against him (seems he liked to low far approach and slide).
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Re: No more love for Kobayashi Fuseki

Post by Kirby »

Thanks, Uberdude.

Personally, my favorite fuseki is this one, but I'm not the first to use it:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Sorry, today I'm in the mood for dry humor :-p
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Re: No more love for Kobayashi Fuseki

Post by DrStraw »

Kirby wrote:Thanks, Uberdude.

Personally, my favorite fuseki is this one, but I'm not the first to use it:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Sorry, today I'm in the mood for dry humor :-p
That's my least favorite. I doubt I have played it more than a handful of times out of the 20000+ games I have played.

Each to his own, I guess. :)
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Re: No more love for Kobayashi Fuseki

Post by Kirby »

DrStraw wrote:That's my least favorite. I doubt I have played it more than a handful of times out of the 20000+ games I have played.

Each to his own, I guess. :)
Well, I'm 1d and you are 5d. So maybe I should try to mix things up a bit, sometime :-)

Can't focus on go in the immediate future, but maybe I should make an effort to start with something different. Maybe 3-4 point.
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