Influence without an extension

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Kirby
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Influence without an extension

Post by Kirby »

I noticed in a recent game between Park Junghwan and Tang Weixing an interesting choice of play, which I don't understand.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 9 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Simple enough, right? The problem is, I don't think I can see myself playing :b9:. The reason is simple: I see :b9: as gaining influence, while giving white territory on the bottom, and it's hard for me to view the influence as effective due to :w6:.

In a position like this, my view is different:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 9 . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . 2 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
In something like above, the marked white stones (plus :w12:) seem to be working together with a nice synergy. Yes, I give territory to black on the left, but in exchange, I get a nice position on the bottom.

I'm much more reluctant to give the territory without the synergy that I get by having an extension.

Coming back to the pro game, again, as black I would be much more likely to play something like this, knowing myself:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 8 . . . . 9 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . 7 . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Or maybe make the exchange on top first:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 0 . . . . B . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . 9 . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I suspect that this is inferior (for example, white can cap at 'a'), so I searched GoGoD for the right half of the board. After white's pincer at :w6:, on an otherwise empty board on the left half, there are 311 matches. Every single match presses white down with :b9: from the original diagram.

With 311 examples all playing the same press, I suspect that it's a good option. But I still don't see myself playing it in a real game, because I don't understand the concept of pressing white down to get territory, when the influence I get doesn't seem that useful due to the :w6: pincer...

Are black's stones all that valuable after pressing white down? I guess white doesn't have that many points after black presses, but black doesn't seem to be that efficient either with a stick of black stones that are kind of floating there without attacking anyone...

What am I missing? :scratch:
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baduk
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Re: Influence without an extension

Post by baduk »

Hello,
Go is not that easy,especially for pros,there are no kind of rules of thumb for them(of course a little exaggerated),every Position must be considered as unique and all the details must be analysed,thats the way to make a proper decision.Im not a pro or anything but I can guess the meaning of the move,as you know there is another proverb:use influnce for attack!, so White just made a pincer Extension in order to be extreme efficient,but White leaves some space to invade for black later,so if black gets strong first he can invade afterwards in order to punish Whites wish to be more efficient.if black just counterpincers(which maybe is ok too,i dont know),White would achieve her Goal to get a higher effiency and it is much harder to invade Whites moyo later. Also pros really like to break each others plans really much,that might be another reason for this move.
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Calvin Clark
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Re: Influence without an extension

Post by Calvin Clark »

I think we can compare games with the pincer at C9 with the ones involving the even looser pseudo-pincer at C10. With the latter, I think you'll find that the press is much less common. :) Note that in your ideal example white extends all the way K4. You must have instinctively not chosen L4.

My view is that C9 is a wee bit too close to the strong stones black may build (depending on how white plays). Plus, white is kind of open in the upper left, so I would think of those outside stones as supporting an invasion.

This idea that any stone in the vague area of the normal extension from your "wall" somehow erases its value is often exaggerated.

Finally, if you look the joseki up there are variations where black pincers C9, true, but also there ones were black gets the 3-3 point, so the press isn't always 100% for influence.

Can you share the full game record?
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Bill Spight
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Re: Influence without an extension

Post by Bill Spight »

Kirby wrote:I noticed in a recent game between Park Jungwan and Tang Weixing an interesting choice of play, which I don't understand.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 9 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
{snip}

Coming back to the pro game, again, as black I would be much more likely to play something like this, knowing myself:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 8 . . . . 9 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . 7 . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Or maybe make the exchange on top first:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 0 . . . . B . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . 9 . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I suspect that this is inferior (for example, white can cap at 'a'), so I searched GoGoD for the right half of the board. After white's pincer at :w6:, on an otherwise empty board on the left half, there are 311 matches. Every single match presses white down with :b9: from the original diagram.

With 311 examples all playing the same press, I suspect that it's a good option. But I still don't see myself playing it in a real game, because I don't understand the concept of pressing white down to get territory, when the influence I get doesn't seem that useful due to the :w6: pincer...

Are black's stones all that valuable after pressing white down? I guess white doesn't have that many points after black presses, but black doesn't seem to be that efficient either with a stick of black stones that are kind of floating there without attacking anyone...

What am I missing? :scratch:
Minor point. I wouldn't call "a" a cap.

First, I would not kick myself for choosing the counter pincer. It even fits Sonoda's style, I think, since White outnumbers Black on the left side.

I thought that you mixed up left and right, since the pincer is on the left side. Using Waltheri's site to match the left side, I do not find the press at all. Not at all. Why is it not showing at least some of the 311 examples that you found? Most peculiar.

But yes, the press is playable, and this is something that pros learned a long time ago. :) It is not easy for us mortals to understand, especially if we have been taught that walls need extensions. If you look at how games with such walls develop, often it seems that they just sit there. ;) Food for thought. :)
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Kirby
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Re: Influence without an extension

Post by Kirby »

Calvin Clark wrote:I think we can compare games with the pincer at C9 with the ones involving the even looser pseudo-pincer at C10. With the latter, I think you'll find that the press is much less common. :) Note that in your ideal example white extends all the way K4. You must have instinctively not chosen L4.

My view is that C9 is a wee bit too close to the strong stones black may build (depending on how white plays). Plus, white is kind of open in the upper left, so I would think of those outside stones as supporting an invasion.

This idea that any stone in the vague area of the normal extension from your "wall" somehow erases its value is often exaggerated.

Finally, if you look the joseki up there are variations where black pincers C9, true, but also there ones were black gets the 3-3 point, so the press isn't always 100% for influence.

Can you share the full game record?
About K4 vs. L4, I feel like playing K4 since the E4 stone makes it easier for white to invade around J3 later. With the black helping stone at K4 a bit closer, it seems to make the invasion a little harder.

The full game record is here:
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Kirby
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Re: Influence without an extension

Post by Kirby »

Bill Spight wrote:
Minor point. I wouldn't call "a" a cap.
Thanks - should have said "cover", I guess.
Bill Spight wrote: I thought that you mixed up left and right, since the pincer is on the left side. Using Waltheri's site to match the left side, I do not find the press at all. Not at all. Why is it not showing at least some of the 311 examples that you found? Most peculiar.
I see what happened. I've had GoGoD for a little while, but just started using it, so I'm a bit of a noob. In my GoGoD query, I was only interested in the press in response to the pincer, and omitted the :b7: :w8: exchange. If I include that exchange, I see only *10* games in the GoGoD database, and none of them lean like Park Junghwan did here. If I omit the :b7: :w8: exchange on ps.Waltheri.net, I see the lean as the second most common response including 25 games (querying the entire board position).

So perhaps this is a case of user error. The responses to the pincer are much more varied than I thought when there is the :b7: :w8: exchange included - and I even see "my" counter pincer played by Izumi Kiichiro in 1910.

From this I gather than pressing is not the only option, but as you say, "playable".
Bill Spight wrote: If you look at how games with such walls develop, often it seems that they just sit there. ;) Food for thought. :)
(emphasis added by me)

Fundamentally, this is what bothers me. When I have an extension to backup my influence, it seems like the wall is doing something. Without this, it seems to be just sitting there, potentially as a target for attack.

Maybe it simplifies the game in some way - give the opponent a few points, but reduce his/her potential. I have just a stick of stones not doing much, but at least my opponent's potential is reduced. :scratch:
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skydyr
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Re: Influence without an extension

Post by skydyr »

I've recently come around to thinking that despite not having follow-up plays near them, so long as the walls don't come under attack, they are doing something. Namely, they are making the empty space around them smaller. Once such a wall is built, the opponent's moves nearby have to deal with its thickness, and this forces them to play more conservatively. It also offers much more reduction potential in the event that the opponent does try to build something nearby. In Bill's terms, I suppose it's reducing the temperature of the local area. Everyone knows the proverb to play away from thickness, and the direct application of that is to leave that area until the rest of the board catches up in terms of development.

If you look at the game in question, I'll grant the stones don't seem that thick. However, you'll note that white didn't end up playing near it for quite some time afterwards. Because black only invested three stones, it's also hard to attack, since black could easily sacrifice them to destroy the left side or otherwise handle them with sabaki.

I suppose another way to think of it in this case is that black played a few forcing moves and white responded submissively, so black is in no hurry to do anything to the stones as they have lots of aji and have already done their work. They may turn into something (or not) in the future, but with no danger of being swallowed wholesale and no real prospects for big gains, there's no point in playing locally.

Edited for grammar.
Last edited by skydyr on Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kirby
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Re: Influence without an extension

Post by Kirby »

Thanks, skydyr. That's a nice perspective.

In this regard, I'm reminded of the possibility to tenuki after exchange on the top left 3-4 stone:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Usually people say you can tenuki from the top left after this, for example, to approach at 'a'. Why can you tenuki? The answer I hear is that the exchanges in the top right can be seen as forcing.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Later, a cut by white as above is great for white locally, and black is worse off.

But I guess the exchange kind of "settles" the position there, and black can get compensation on other parts of the board.

Maybe the lean in the OP is similar. It may not be as great for black as if black had an extension, but maybe it forces a settled position that black doesn't have to worry about for awhile, and can move on to other parts of the board.

I don't really get it 100%, but somehow, it half makes sense to me.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Influence without an extension

Post by Bill Spight »

Kirby wrote:Thanks, skydyr. That's a nice perspective.

In this regard, I'm reminded of the possibility to tenuki after exchange on the top left 3-4 stone:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Usually people say you can tenuki from the top left after this, for example, to approach at 'a'. Why can you tenuki? The answer I hear is that the exchanges in the top right can be seen as forcing.
True enough. :) Another way to look at it is that, since White has secured the corner, the local temperature has dropped. (I do not think that it has dropped by much, but it is pretty obvious that it has dropped. :))
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Later, a cut by white as above is great for white locally, and black is worse off.
I don't think that it is great for White locally. Consider this tewari.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
:b1: and :b3: are not so good, but what about :w4:?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Wouldn't White play the ladder?

Tewari when neither side has played well can be misleading, but I don't think that we can call the result after White cuts great for White. White has, in effect, played an enclosure in the corner, but Black has created aji.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Kirby
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Re: Influence without an extension

Post by Kirby »

Bill Spight wrote:
Tewari when neither side has played well can be misleading, but I don't think that we can call the result after White cuts great for White. White has, in effect, played an enclosure in the corner, but Black has created aji.
True enough. Maybe "great" is a strong word. But certainly, locally, black has a worse result than if black did not tenuki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
The similarity I see here with my original question was simply that "maybe it's sufficient to lower the temperature in a local area, even if you aren't necessarily winning locally". With the OP, I would feel much better if the lean had an extension to go with the influence. That would make me feel better locally.

OTOH, maybe I'm trying to hard to interpret this into something it's not.
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