The Story of a Loser - The Great Pitfall of Studying Go!

Cool1 · **#41**

Hello, Ian.

I'm new to Go also and have enjoyed this thread.

If you'd ever like to play a 13x13 correspondence game, it'd be fun. Create a board and shoot me an invite on DragonGo.net (same Cool1 there) and I promise to give you a thoughtful, careful match.

I find that when I'm playing live Go (KSG), I make mistakes. As a new player (self-ranked at 28 kyu, but I'm probably a bit higher), I enjoy keeping a real board set up for correspondence Go and thinking through every move, telling myself "look, there's only a few 'good' moves here, so which is it?"

If you're already bogged down with games, no need to play now. Maybe sometime in the future.

I'll follow your progress on this thread with interest.

With respect, Steve.

Ian Butler · **#42**

Mostly because of my work, I sort of let Go slide for about a year. But I recently picked it back up and I hope to keep playing it regularly, now. I aim to spend 1 hour a day on Go on average and see how much I can improve.
So, back to the board! Happy about it, too.

So with that said, this is a game I just played which shows about where I am right now, I guess. Game was 10 minute game clock + 3x30s, so time definitely played a part. This was mostly instinctive play without much reading.
I made a couple of big mistakes, but I think I made some good moves, too.

Most important thing is that I'm back! more in love with Go than ever, I might add. Can't believe I forgot about it for a year. Sometimes life takes over and fools like me allow it to

Ian Butler · **#43**

Another game. Played quite well, I think.
Only two big blunders in the endgame. Still, says a lot of my midgame when I still win with over 10 points.

Although I'm not too happy about double blindness near the end there. My concentration needs to be better!

Ian Butler · **#44**

So, a small update on my game!

I've gotten some great equipment from my brother (what a gift), a new board and glass stones, which is a great motivating to study even harder.
I've also purchased a magnetic board and some more books to help.

Trying to get better I've been reading some books with both life-and-death problems, but also middle-game and opening questions. I'm also browsing through 'shape up' by Chikun, but it's a bit above my level I think. Still, learning some interesting shapes and key points.

I've also finally (up for debate, though) learning some joseki. I'm trying to learn a new one every few days. I look them up, with someone explaining the moves and why this is joseki, then I play it out multiple times, switching colors and sides of the board, then I write them down the next day on a kifu, so my collection will grow. I practise all joseki I know every two days, too.

Besides that, I try to go to the Go club every week or at least 3 times a month, where I play stronger players. I've played less online, though, because I just don't feel the same connection to the game clicking. I love those stones too much. But I should probably at least play a few games a week.

A game I just played was the following, it was pretty okay, I think.

daal · **#45**

Shape Up! is not by "Chikun," it is by "Charles." As in Charles Matthews. ;-)

As to the game, it reminded me of someone walking their dog. Most moves were played very close to a just previously played stone. Both players should think about not following the opponent around so much. In general - if a group is alive, there is usually something more valuable than continuing to defend it, though if your opponent forces you to make points while defending, why not?

Ian Butler · **#46**

daal wrote:

Shape Up! is not by "Chikun," it is by "Charles." As in Charles Matthews. ;-)

As to the game, it reminded me of someone walking their dog. Most moves were played very close to a just previously played stone. Both players should think about not following the opponent around so much. In general - if a group is alive, there is usually something more valuable than continuing to defend it, though if your opponent forces you to make points while defending, why not?

Of course, I was mistaken him for the other book I'm reading which is Encyclopedia of Life and Death, which is by Cho Chikun

Yeah, it's something I need to work on, use stones more effeciently, use the space a bit better.
This game was a bit better in terms of spacing, although I was behind most of the game. Still, with 10 minutes on the clock, I had 5 minutes left when my opponent was in Byo-Yomi and I profited from that, captering a nice group and forcing him to resign.

So steadily getting better and trying to work on my weaknesses. Trying to play a bit more aggressive, but not in a way that makes my play unsafe. It's a delicate balance I'm trying to figure out

I also played a 13x13 game, which I hardly ever do. So my start was pretty dramatic. Strong action was necessary to turn the game around and I barely managed. Still, I'm on a nice winning streak right now, with almost 10 won games in a row, against stronger and weaker players alike. So I'll have to be extra careful not to be let down when I get in a losing streak somewhere in the future, because I think that's unavoidable in getting stronger at Go.

Ian Butler · **#47**

Bah I'm having a really terrible day. Like everything I've learned so far is just gone. Making mistakes all around the board, not doing a single thing right. Terrible, terrible day

Ian Butler · **#48**

Ian Butler wrote:

Bah I'm having a really terrible day. Like everything I've learned so far is just gone. Making mistakes all around the board, not doing a single thing right. Terrible, terrible day

So what started as a bad day, turned into a wonderful day.

I purchased a real goban table-board, like the €1500 kind, along with shell stones and some other equipment. Also making plans to set-up a go club at my house, with the main thing being that everyone joining will be a new player, so I hope that'll stimulate people to come weekly or at least every once in a while.
I already have a few boards and if interest is high, I'll have to buy some extra. Wouldn't mind it, though.

Exciting times!

Ian Butler · **#49**

So, additional to playing games, doing tsumego, learning joseki (sporadically) and reading Go books (like Tesuji, shape up...), I'm trying something new at the moment.
Some people seem to be "against" it, others recommend it highly. I figure it can't hurt and even if it's not the best way to make progress, it's another variation to studying Go and I find it lots of fun. So what is it?

Memorizing Pro Games.
I've just started it and it's very interesting.
I do this with a printer kifu for several reasons.
- Don't have to look at a screen constantly
- I sometimes have to "find" the next move. If I don't see it immediately I have to look at the board and go "where would he play next?"

After about 15 minutes I had 34 moves memorized. After half an hour, about 50 moves.
I got tired of it (concentration failing me) after about an hour. I couldn't remember well past move 50 (but those 50 come quickly!) but I played it out until move 80 or so and thought about what every move does. I don't understand all of the moves, but it's not the most complicated game up until move 80 so that helps.

So, maybe it'll help, maybe it won't so much, but it can't hurt and at least I did another hour of studying. At worst my brain/memory has had some additional training, even if my Go skill won't notice.

It's also fun to see a move played at like 52, which pays off almost 20 moves later unexpectedly. Or a player playing very lightly and not making a base and that being punished heavily later on.

Though strangely I felt white had the upper hand at move 80, while I read that B won by resignation. I should continue the game to see what happened another day.

Bill Spight · **#50**

Good luck with your project.

Memorization is a traditional human way of learning.

May I suggest the following tricks. 1) Start in the middle. The reason for starting in the middle is that the middle is what we tend to forget.
2) Break the game up into episodes.

For instance, suppose that we are memorizing this game between Ke Jie and Master. (SGF file at bottom. Putting it here messed up the page. :mad:

)

The game lasted 228 moves. So the middle third starts around move 76. Looking around that point, we see an episode starting with White 66.

White invasion

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm66 White invasion $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . 1 . X . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . X . X O . . . . . . | $$ | O O X X O . . . . X . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . O X O X . X O . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . O O X O . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . X X O . . . . . | $$ | . O O O . O X . . , O . . X . O . . . | $$ | . X O X . . X . . . . X . X . O . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And continuing through Black 113.

Large scale trade

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 Large scale trade $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X X X . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . X . . X . O O O X O X . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . X . O X . O X X . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O O O O X . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X . . X X O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . X . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . O . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . O . , . O O . O , . . . | $$ | . X . X . . X O . X . X O . . . . . . | $$ | O O X X O . . O . X . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . O X O X . X O . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . O . O O X O . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . X X O . . . . . | $$ | . O O O . O X . . , O . . X . O . . . | $$ | . X O X . . X . . . O X . X . O . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . X . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White's invasion has died, but in exchange White has saved his stones on the bottom and captured Black's stones in the center.

We can also break this episode up and start memorizing it after Black 77.

White to play

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm77 White to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . O . X . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . O O . . , . . . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . X . X O . . . . . . | $$ | O O X X O . . . . X . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . O X O X . X O . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . O O X O . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . X X O . . . . . | $$ | . O O O . O X . . , O . . X . O . . . | $$ | . X O X . . X . . . O X . X . O . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

cuts White's invasion off. Now what?

Good luck!

Ian Butler · **#51**

Cool, thanks Bill for the tip, it's on my list for the coming weeks

Another game I'm planning to learn (while I train to memorize them, I also review them, so it's a double reward) is a Shusaku game (vs Shuwa).

Anyway, this might be nice for my study journal: a blitz game I played earlier today. Obviously doesn't contain my best moves, game clock 7 seconds per move. My opponent was stronger (14kyu) and at one piont was ahead by a lot. I made a CRAZY invasion, just too crazy but it's blitz so, anything can happen. My invasion actually worked! Still lost by about 10 points, but I feel it was a nice & fun game.
Blitz is just so crazy. I don't do it often because it's so stressy but when I do it, man, I feel alive

Move 179 is the move, btw

Ian Butler · **#52**

I'm trying to read Life and Death by Davies, and also do the exercises. I've read a few times that it's a good book for 20-15 kyu.

However, I'm finding the exercises rather hard and I need quite a while to think them properly through.
I try to do tsumego a few times a week. Can't say I'm excellent at them, but I don't think I'm bad either. Still, this book poses some very tough challenges to me. Anyone know this book?

Other than that, I'm reading 'Get Strong at Invading'. Although I should really lay out the problems in the book on the table, to better see the shapes on the board rather than just see them in a book.

Looking for some advice concerning the following, too:

I've purchased quite some books on various topics (invading, attack & defense, tesuji, opening theory...)
What approach works better (for you or maybe in general?)

1. Skip from book to book, try to learn from each book, another one each day.
2. Really delve into one topic for a while (2 weeks or so) and try to do only tsumego & game playing besides studying that particular topic (like invading)

Because right now I'm going through various books at once, replaying pro games (and memorizing/reviewing), playing games (and reviewing sometimes), doing tsumego... Sometimes it's a bit hectic, so I wonder if this is the best approach to learning.

nasdaq · **#53**

Approach 2 works for me better.

I've often started a book and read mybe 1/2 of it and stopped, looked at another book for a bit, etc....

Dont think its optimal way to study but it may work for you so I cant say.

Some books like 'attack and defense' its mybe best to just focus on the lessons and try apply in your games otherwise its not applying that new knowledge and so not learning fully.

But if your like me and get bored after a few days and skip to different book then give it a try and stick to one book for a few weeks until its finished.

Some problems in 'life and death' elementary series are quite hard for your level, so no problem, cant remember if carpenters square is in it but thats definitely a dan level tsumego.

There is so many ways to study this game so choose what is fun for you.
I used to love doing tsumego and didnt play for a year or two. my reading was good but when i did play it was like 'how do i play this game', so its not all reading there is a lot of strategy in go too.

probably my favourite books i've read are:
attack and defense
lesson in fundamentals
fundamental principles of go
invincible
positional judgment - cho

i really like the Lee Changho tesuji and l&d books vols 1-6 for tsumego

dfan · **#54**

I have said it a few times here before, but Life and Death is really a reference work pretending to be a textbook, and is far too hard to be read cover to cover as a DDK. I tried to work through it diligently when I was 12k or something and it almost killed off my enthusiasm for the game entirely. Feel free to give it a shot, but if you get frustrated, put it aside and come back to it a few months later.

Get Strong at Invading is also stronger than your current level. Again, if you're enjoying it, then that's fine, and it doesn't hurt to be exposed to idiomatic lines of play as long as you don't obsess about recreating them, but there are more efficient ways to improve at 15k.

Books/series I would particularly recommend for your level, especially if you happen to have them around already: Graded Go Problems for Beginners volume 2, Level Up (although I don't know what volume is appropriate for you now - maybe 6?), Learn To Play Go, Opening Theory Made Easy.

Ian Butler · **#55**

@nasdaq
Thank you!
For me it's not as much that I get bored, rather that I'm so enthusiastic that I want to learn it all and can't decide which topic to tackle first

Tsumego is getting more fun but I've done too difficult ones for too long and that killed off my spirit for a while

though I'm better at it now and have found more appropriate problems.
Of your favorite books I've purchased (though not yet arrived) Fundamentals, Attack and Defense. I wanted Invincible but was sold out here

@dfan
Appreciate your comment. At your suggestion I'll leave the book for what it is for now, just use it as reference for some shapes. And I get the same feeling that my enthusiasm is getting a little hit from this book, so that's another reason to leave it. Compared with Graded Go Problem for Beginners Volume 3 (which I'm also reading) especially. That one is a lot of fun and I'm getting a hang of the problems, too! Maybe I'll have to buy Volume 2, too, for some easier problems, since I always tend to go for the hard ones where I need a minute to work it out and success rate of little over 50%.

Opening Theory Made Easier is one of the books I've purchased, so nice to hear it'll be better for me than L&D atm

As for Get Strong at Invading: it's a lot for me now, with many different situations, so bit overwhelming. However, I've today just focused on one type of problem (invasion of a 3rd line stone in between 2 third line stones) and done a ton of variations in the book. It's helped a bit already.

Thanks both for your advice! I'll look into some more tsumego books appropriate to my level. Well, at least when I've saved up a little bit again (€1500 Goban board was quite the expense!)

nasdaq · **#56**

There is a tsumego book thats about perfect for your level, its called weiqi rapid 800 drills
https://senseis.xmp.net/?WeiqiRapidDrill800Problems
i have the book but its got a different cover to the one at sensei

its level is about graded go problems for beginners vol 3 level, some slightly easier and a some slightly harder.

i can recommend it for you. you should be able to find it on amazon.cn, which i've used in the past and ship to UK

Bill Spight · **#57**

Ian Butler wrote:

I've purchased quite some books on various topics (invading, attack & defense, tesuji, opening theory...)
What approach works better (for you or maybe in general?)

1. Skip from book to book, try to learn from each book, another one each day.
2. Really delve into one topic for a while (2 weeks or so) and try to do only tsumego & game playing besides studying that particular topic (like invading)

I don't know about the latest research, but when I was an undergraduate, neither approach had been shown to be superior to the other.

Quote:

Because right now I'm going through various books at once, replaying pro games (and memorizing/reviewing), playing games (and reviewing sometimes), doing tsumego... Sometimes it's a bit hectic, so I wonder if this is the best approach to learning.

Whatever appeals to you is probably best.

Good luck!

Ian Butler · **#58**

Thank you both

I've been trying to get in the habit of tackling tsumego like a game in itself, trying to like it a lot.
I must say I'm getting closer and closer. I've had Graded Go Problems Volume 3, I've been able to solve quite some problems and I'm very satisfied with that. However these take time and are on or even a bit above my level. Without the hints it'd be too tough, I think.

However, for the first time I did some tsumego where I'm right about 80% of the time and I need only 5-10 seconds to solve. So a bit too easy at times, but it's much more fun to do, very motivating.
So I ordered ggpb Volume 1 and 2 and I'll just go from the start and work through the basic problems first.

I hope it'll be fun.

On another note, my Kifu-training:

Today I memorized up to 70 moves in 35 minutes, which is really great!
My last record was 50 moves in 35 minutes. Although I may have reviewed that game a bit more in detail. Today I didn't analyse very closely.

I think it's a good sign that I only have to actually "know" about 1/4 moves or even less. Those start of a sequence which I find flows easily.

Ian Butler · **#59**

Well, well. Played a game against Leela. I have to admit I played it kind of blitz-y, because I'm too tired to read out too much after work. So it's not the highest quality of my playing, and normally I wouldn't share except for this:
During the phase where a white group started to run out, I thought I responded very well, sticking to what I've learned these past few weeks.
When I analysed the game afterwards with Leela, I found out that, during that sequence, I got every single move 'right'. Every move I made was the best move according to Leela.
I don't know, it was thrilling for me to discover that during analysis.

The rest of my game was pretty meh, I can do better. I played pretty recklessly against her because before I had way more handicap against her and never got in big trouble, maybe I underestimated the change in handicap, I really shouldn't and I'm gonna play Leela again soon and take it more seriously

Anyway, the moves that very really good on my part were 62 until 76. Yeey!

Ian Butler · **#60**

Putting in long hours lately. Studying hard, reading books, replaying pro-games etc.

Books I'm reading atm are:

- Attack & Defense
- Opening Theory Made Easy (3rd read-through in 2 weeks)
- Fundamentals of Go (just finished chapter of improper-proper moves where he has 10 problems: I had about half of them right)
- Elementary Series Volume 2 (with about 75% success in the problems)

I have played less games against people (besides Wednesday evening, since I started a go-club for beginners at my house!), but I've played a bit more against Leela (19x19) and Igowin (9x9).
Leela considers me 5kyu-ish, while Igowin has me at 13 kyu, constantly shifting between 2 stone handicap and even game (I start as black).
Now I don't hold too much importance on these ranks, but I guess it says something about my overall strength and I think I've improved hugely in just a month or so.
And I'm glad, because I do spend 2-3+ hours a day studying Go. Even though it's fun on its own, improving is the greatest fruit of it!

Oddly enough I've not been watching many Nick Sibicky or other Go videos anymore. I find my time better spend with a Go book, or replaying a pro game, or simply playing myself.
What I did watch yesterday was a workshop of Sibicky where we had multiple choice options in opening situations. Of the 10 problems, I had 8 right, and never spend more than 10 seconds on a problem (didn't pause the video). According to Sibicky (again, not too important but it says something), that's between 10 and 15 kyu.

So I might be able to call myself at least 15 kyu soon

Biggest weakness is probably still contact-fighting.
So that's why Igowin is probably stil a valuable tool for me.

The Story of a Loser - The Great Pitfall of Studying Go!

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