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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #41 Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:11 pm 
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I like the use of "she" for White and "he" for Black. Maybe it's because I first saw it in Learn To Play Go books, which are a) very cute and silly and b) are written by a woman, and complaining she doesn't use the "gender-neutral" "he" would actually seem sexist. Plus it does make it easier to distinguish between the two players in the text (always saying black this, white that gets tiresome).

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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #42 Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:51 pm 
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palapiku wrote:
I like the use of "she" for White and "he" for Black. Maybe it's because I first saw it in Learn To Play Go books, which are a) very cute and silly and b) are written by a woman, and complaining she doesn't use the "gender-neutral" "he" would actually seem sexist. Plus it does make it easier to distinguish between the two players in the text (always saying black this, white that gets tiresome).


If you want to give a positive image of, or for, feminity in Go, why not just work an example of a lady's achievements into your text, instead of pretending that your choice of gender for the stones presents some pair-go-esque world of 1:1 male-female ratio and harmony. :-?

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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #43 Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:08 pm 
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Javaness wrote:

Some people, including women, don't want to raise the profile of women in the game. For those of us that do, I believe that deliberately using 'he' and 'she' for separate colours is a banal, tokenist, and vaguely irritating attempt to do so. Besides, in reviews I normally say Black can be satisfied with their thickness rather than He can be satisfied with his thickness



It is amazing. I mean we can use words to make anything offensive, or to stretch any point.

Surely using "she" to represent the white stones is simply perpetuating an oldfashioned idealized notion of the purity of womanhood.

Seriously, if the players are fictional, what is the harm of throwing some "she"s in? Would men here be offended less if the holder of the black, traditionally weaker stones, were referred to as "she".

Personally I think it is a nice, non exclusionairy convention which allows some less confusing variations in sentence structure.

Perhaps it would be extreme for a feminist to insist on such a convention, but it seems equally extreme for folks to be so irritated by its very occaisional use.

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 Post subject: America and the Orient
Post #44 Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:39 pm 
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I can't resist to point out:

- that Edward Said qualms were probably more about the approach than about the word.

- that saying America when actually talking about the United States, would probably qualify as US-centric in the bigger part of the Americas.

- that discussing whether white is female, male or simply white should probably discussed somewhere where it matters. (E.g. White as female is quite common on Sensei's Library.)

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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #45 Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:05 pm 
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To continue off-topic, I would like to state an obvious, that in yin-yang white is a male color and black represents a female. This is also traditional Oriental interpretation of go stone colors and their gender roles. Westerners might think something else and that is ok.

Chess is of course different game, because it has queens and princesses and rockinghorses and other cute little things, so it has build in female and male aspects so it is not sensible to associate gender roles for the colors themselves.

One thing that is a little annoying is that people usually refer to gobots as male, although the gender of gobot should be female.


Last edited by Liisa on Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #46 Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:06 pm 
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Javaness wrote:
If you want to give a positive image of, or for, feminity in Go, why not just work an example of a lady's achievements into your text, instead of pretending that your choice of gender for the stones presents some pair-go-esque world of 1:1 male-female ratio and harmony. :-?

Because the reason for using "he" and "she" is to distinguish black and white easier, and has nothing to do with positive image of femininity!

I don't care about the image of femininity in Go - I think the facts speak for themselves there.

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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #47 Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:15 pm 
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I can't wait for the league to start.

Then we can all kibitz in wbaduk a game where Catalin, Alexandr or Ilja is playing as white against Diana or Svetlana. I can already feel the love you guys are going to get after you say "Ooh, what a tesuji he played" when in EuroGoTV we see Diana pressing the clock.

Unfortunately my dream ends when Robert jumps in in the middle of the game saying "Who said it was a black stone, that is not politically correct".

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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #48 Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:20 pm 
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Strawman (or woman, as the case may be). I doubt anyone is in favor of using gender pronouns incorrectly when the players are known.

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 Post subject: The Orient and Other PC Discussion
Post #49 Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:31 pm 
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Merged from European Pro thread.

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 Post subject: Re: The Orient and Other PC Discussion
Post #50 Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:36 pm 
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Post removed. Duplicate from multiple thread merges.


Last edited by cdybeijing on Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #51 Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:53 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
I cringe every time I read or hear a reference to "the Orient."


Since the poster of this message made me cringe by declining to explain the statement, I can't know exactly why he cringes. However, not very long ago a person from a family of Chinese origin living in the USA wrote to me about my frequent use of "Oriental" and said he, like some other people in the USA, found it pejorative. He was not really complaining but rather was puzzled because my usage of the term was clearly not meant to be pejorative!

I think it would therefore be useful, mostly for Americans, if I point out that, for historical and cultural reasons, we in Britain, and I think to a large degree other countries in Europe, have in our consciousness the many people of India and Pakistan who live here. They tend to prefer being classed as (British) Asians, and this usage is enshrined in many official government usages. We therefore often use Oriental for people from China, Japan and Korea. There is not, and as far as I know never has been, any suggestion of this being pejorative. People of this origin in Britain also use the term about themselves. A large supermarket near us in London run by Japanese and selling food from Japan, China, Korea, Thailand and Malaysia (but not from India or Pakistan) called itself, in huge neon letters The Oriental Centre. And I might add that within Japan they sometimes use the English word Oriental about themselves.

We do not exclude such people from Asia, of course, but when we refer to the CKJ countries in that way we often tend to say South-East Asia, although whether China is then included is often a matter of debate.

Such definitions are always fluid - I can well remember as a child finding it hard to get my head round some people calling the Middle East Asia (not wrong but it did confuse me) - and some people will have a slightly different take on the nuances. But I can say with certainty that "Oriental" or "the Orient" when it comes from this side of the Pond has nothing bad about it.


Wow, I had no idea how this thread had been blown up and separated off from the original thread because of my small comment. I don't follow the European Go Federation sub-forum very closely, so I missed all of this until now.

John, it's not a matter of political correctness. It's about the inadequacy of the term, and it's overwhelming ambiguity. It's scope is much larger than European or another term of such kind, and as you yourself suggested, what an American thinks when hearing it might be quite different from what a European hears.

The problem with the terms "Orient" and "Oriental", especially when capitalized, is that they are aberrations, representing something that can not really be said to exist in any coherent way. The words just make grave differences superflous.


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 Post subject: Re: The Orient and Other PC Discussion
Post #52 Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:39 pm 
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Traditional Chinese geography had five directions, each matched with a color: north ( black ), south ( red ), east ( green ), west ( white ) and center ( yellow )

Shall we tell the Chinese that their "Yellow Mountain" in central China is too China-centric? Or their "Red River" in southern China? Or "Green Island" off of their eastern coast?

Shall we tell them also that calling their land "The Middle Kingdom" or "The Middle Country" is also a bit China-centric?

-----------------

The Japanese have long referred to Japan as the "Land of the Rising Sun", because it appeared to be the first land that the sun touched. Shall we tell them that that term is Nippon-centric? ( I suggest 'Land of the UCT+9 sun" )

---------------
We all have terms for in-relation-to-where-I-am.

When those who object to the use of "Orient" or "Oriental" because it is Eurocentric object equally loudly to the terms mentioned above - when they tell the Japanese and Chinese that the very names of their countries are wrong - then I'll take them seriously. Otherwise I will not.

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 Post subject: Re: The Orient and Other PC Discussion
Post #53 Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:45 pm 
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And can I use the term 'UTC'? It seems a bit Greenwich-centric. :)

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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #54 Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:11 am 
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hyperpape wrote:
richardamullens wrote:
To me "oriental" is not in the least pejorative. I might say that "I like oriental girls" where there is a hint of mystery or exoticism implied and it certainly beats reeling off a long list of countries.


And that, gentlemen, is one of the associations that makes the term demeaning--the suggestion that the orientals are nice little mysteries to be studied.


What's the PC word for conveying the same idea, if oriental can't be used?

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 Post subject: Re: The Orient and Other PC Discussion
Post #55 Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:33 am 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Traditional Chinese geography had five directions, each matched with a color: north ( black ), south ( red ), east ( green ), west ( white ) and center ( yellow )

Shall we tell the Chinese that their "Yellow Mountain" in central China is too China-centric? Or their "Red River" in southern China? Or "Green Island" off of their eastern coast?

Shall we tell them also that calling their land "The Middle Kingdom" or "The Middle Country" is also a bit China-centric?

-----------------

The Japanese have long referred to Japan as the "Land of the Rising Sun", because it appeared to be the first land that the sun touched. Shall we tell them that that term is Nippon-centric? ( I suggest 'Land of the UCT+9 sun" )

---------------
We all have terms for in-relation-to-where-I-am.

When those who object to the use of "Orient" or "Oriental" oject equally loudly to the terms mentioned above - when they tell The Japanese and Chinese that the very names of their countries are wrong - then I'll take them seriously. Otherwise I will not.


Exactly!

What's more, I have just spoke with a few Chinese scientists we have working for us, and the consensus was that they were ok with the words 'Orient' and 'Oriental'. My wife also does not have any problems with that. As a matter of fact, they all seem surprised that its even an issue.

I mean - I am not saying that there are no Oriental people who get offended at being called such, but who are they?

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 Post subject: Re: The Orient and Other PC Discussion
Post #56 Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:36 am 
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How about allowing people to define themselves, respecting that prerogative, and feeling secure enough with your own identity that when asked to respect their prerogative to self-identify, you yourself don't take offense. A good approach with these so-called PC issues is to remember that it's not always about you.

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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #57 Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:51 am 
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CarlJung wrote:
hyperpape wrote:
richardamullens wrote:
To me "oriental" is not in the least pejorative. I might say that "I like oriental girls" where there is a hint of mystery or exoticism implied and it certainly beats reeling off a long list of countries.


And that, gentlemen, is one of the associations that makes the term demeaning--the suggestion that the orientals are nice little mysteries to be studied.


What's the PC word for conveying the same idea, if oriental can't be used?


Could you please convey the idea, first?

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 Post subject: Re: The Orient and Other PC Discussion
Post #58 Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:33 am 
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One of the benefits of joining an international forum is that you get to hear so many diverse points of view. It is apparent from the posts here that many of us have learned quite a bit that is new, even if not directly related to go. New knowledge often teaches understanding and therefore tolerance. But proper tolerance works both ways. The trouble with PC, like cultural imperialism or missionary zeal, is that it is one-way - it tries to impose a view. I believe this thread is likely to teach proper two-way tolerance where all can agree to differ.

Once again the message of go as a game of co-existence wins through.


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 Post subject: Re: The Orient and Other PC Discussion
Post #59 Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:59 am 
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I would never refer to east Asia as orient. But not for PC reasons.
The German word "Orient" only refers to the near East and thus to the arabic-islamic culture. So I always found it strange when people referred to players from CJK as oriental. But according to Wikipedia Orient has a much wider definition in English.

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 Post subject: Re: The Orient and Other PC Discussion
Post #60 Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:01 am 
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To make it even more complex

Orienst doesn't mean from the east


I was just browsing wikipedia (Ok not very reliable but the best i have)

Orient


Quote:
Derivation
The term "Orient" is derived from the Latin word oriens meaning "east" (lit. "rising" < orior "rise"). The use of the word for "rising" to refer to the east (where the sun rises) has analogs from many languages: compare the terms "Levant" (< French levant "rising"), "Anatolia" (< Greek anatole), "mizrahi" in Hebrew ("zriha" meaning sunrise) and "The Land of the Rising Sun" to refer to Japan. Also, many ancient temples, such as the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem, and also many pagan temples as well, were built with their main entrances facing the East. To situate them in such a manner was to "orient" them in the proper direction. When something was facing the correct direction, it was said to be in the proper "orientation".


and then Japan

Quote:
Etymology

The English word Japan is an exonym. The Japanese names for Japan are Nippon, and Nihon.
The Japanese name Nippon is used for most official purposes, including on Japanese money, postage stamps, and for many international sporting events. Nihon is a more casual term and the most frequently used in contemporary speech. Japanese people refer to themselves as Nihonjin and they call their language Nihongo.

Both Nippon and Nihon literally mean "the sun's origin" and are often translated as the Land of the Rising Sun.


And so Orient can be seen as a correct way to address Nihonjin. :D

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