More Shibano AI magic

Bill Spight · **#21**

I seem to have lost a note. Did I accidentally delete it?

Let's try again.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 Corner invasion $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . 3 1 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 4 X 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In Go Seigen: 21st Century Go, vol. 4, p. 18, Go Seigen says that a lot of people play this 3-3 invasion to the one space pincer, but that it is not good. He gives this diagram. He goes on to say, if you like the 3-3 invasion so well, why not just play it directly? Thus anticipating the bots once again. :lol:

Elf agrees that this diagram is not good for White, but thinks that the problem is :w12:

, which loses 8% to the sagari in the next diagram.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 Open skirt $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 7 O . 3 1 5 . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . 8 6 4 X 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black gets a nice wall, but has an open skirt.

sorin · **#22**

Bill Spight wrote:

Knotwilg wrote:

sorin wrote:

The commonality I see between the 3-4 based shimari and the 4-4 based one is that they both prevent the opponent from playing a very desirable move (a keima approach).

That has a circular scent. Isn't the keima approach is a desirable move because it prevents the owner of the corner stone to make a very desirable move, the enclosure?

As Uberdude has pointed out in his "LeelaZero opening gospel", AI thinks corners are urgent, not only the first move in the corner but also the second move. Now the question is why?

Maybe we have it backwards. Maybe the question is why we came to believe that the second move in the corner is unnecessary.

I think that the answer to that question has to do with the blind-spot about the 3-3 invasion: before AlphaGo, everyone thought that a 3-3 move in response to 4-4 is a passive invasion, while AI showed us that it is in fact an active move (almost an attacking move ?).

Kirby · **#23**

My version of KataGo agrees with your last diagram. However, what I also find surprising is that it seems to prefer black's block on *this* side:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . B O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I stopped after about 12k playouts. The variation it gives is this one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . 1 O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · **#24**

Thanks, Kirby. I have noticed that pattern, as well. But just because Elf agrees with itself means little.

The first strange thing is that Black seems to block on the wrong side. We're already used to the block on the unexpected side against the direct 3-3, but surely Black wants to make a wall with the wide extension. :scratch:

Part of the puzzle is resolved by the fact that Black does not protect against the cut. Black leaves the turn as an option. But, OC, Black can tenuki without playing the turn.

It's a New World, isn't it? :scratch:

Kirby · **#25**

Bill Spight wrote:

It's a New World, isn't it? :scratch:

It is, yeah. I'm confused, but I think I'm starting to enjoy it.

Bill Spight · **#26**

I think I have a better example for what I was trying to say about Shibano's argument.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 White to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I am reasonably certain how LZ would play, following the Gospel.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 According to the Gospel $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

First the press, then the enclosure.

Well, kowabunga, that's how Elf would play, as well. And my guess is so would KataGo and other top bots.

But Cho Chikun was White, vs. Rin Kaiho (GoGoD 1994-03-03a), and he made a textbook play, if not the textbook play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 White to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After all, Black's formation on the left side cries out for a Black stone on K-04 to make a double wing and a huge moyo, and :w14:

prevents that, besides making an extension for White. The direction of play dictates such an extension.

Well, the bots are teaching us different. And I am quite willing to concede that they are very probably right, and the Gospel sequence dominates the bottom extension. But to dominate the extension, the Gospel sequence only has to be at least as good. It does not have to be a lot better, and it does not have to have a winrate difference greater than the margin of error. (OC, if we only had one such example, we would want that.

) Elf calculates a winrate difference of only 2%, surely well within its margin of error. Since Elf tends to find larger winrate differences than other top bots, I would be surprised if either LZ or KataGo evaluates the extension as more than 2% worse than the press or the enclosure.

My point is this. To find that the press or the enclosure is superior to the extension, we only have to show how good they are, not how bad the extension is. Particularly as, even in this case, which seems clear, the extension is very likely to be playable. The press and the extension are better than we thought. We don't have to find reasons to say that the extension is worse than we thought. Maybe it isn't.

Kirby · **#27**

I looked at this position with KataGo a little bit as well.

It was a little bit interesting when I adjusted the komi. When I have komi as 7.5, KataGo thinks white is winning, and recommends the press you mentioned, without considering many other alternatives:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 White to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Above, it thinks white has about a 57% chance of winning, and seems comfortable recommending the press.

But if I lower the komi to 6.5, it thinks white has only about a 47% chance of winning, and now starts thinking of invasion:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 White to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It still kind of likes the press, but there's more "thought" given to this invasion on the left. When I reduce the komi to something like 2.5, it likes the invasion on the left even more. That being said, it really thinks white is losing in such a position. But still interesting to me.

Bill Spight · **#28**

Kirby wrote:

I looked at this position with KataGo a little bit as well.

It was a little bit interesting when I adjusted the komi. When I have komi as 7.5, KataGo thinks white is winning, and recommends the press you mentioned, without considering many other alternatives:
{snip}

Above, it thinks white has about a 57% chance of winning, and seems comfortable recommending the press.

But if I lower the komi to 6.5, it thinks white has only about a 47% chance of winning, and now starts thinking of invasion:
{snip}

When I reduce the komi to something like 2.5, it likes the invasion on the left even more. That being said, it really thinks white is losing in such a position. But still interesting to me.

Yeah, me too. Many thanks.

Knotwilg · **#29**

See also https://senseis.xmp.net/?StandardOpenin ... viewWithAI

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