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RobertJasiek wrote: How / with which principles have you derived / created the German version? Continued. Approach #6: Ambiguities brought about deliberately, which can only be removed again with a very high level of effort. Contd."or if capturing them"(or whatever tranislation you prefer for "又は取られても")We know from the past what is aimed for in the game of Go. Cassandra wrote: VALUE can only be created within called-group-by-the-common-people formations that either already contain at least two permanently-for-the-opponent-forbidden-board-point construction elements, none of which is the sole connection between the called-group-by-the-common-people formation's stones along the lines of the board, which are compatible to called-true-eye-by-the-common-people construction elements, or that can be transferred into such a called-group-by-the-common-people formation with at least two permanently-for-the-opponent-forbidden-board-point construction elements, none of which is the sole connection between called-group-by-the-common-people formation's stones along the lines of the board, which are compatible to called-true-eye-by-the-common-people construction elements, even if the opponent plays first, and which enclosed board intersections are either unoccupied or occupied only by opposing can-be-made-to-disappear-permanently-even-if-the-opponent-plays-first called-group-by-the-common-people construction elements, which are compatible to called-dead-by-the-common-people called-group-by-the-common-people construction elements, which are compatible to called-two-eye-formations-by-some-rule-specialists construction elements, as well as to called-independently-alive-by-the-common-people called-group-by-the-common-people construction elements. ![white 1 :w1:](./images/smilies/w1.gif) Board points permanently occupied by the stones of a player can be considered "owned" by this player / this player's stones.
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[go]$$B $$ +------------------------------------------------ $$ | . O . O X . . | . W . W X . . | , C , C , , , | $$ | O O O O X . . | W W W W X . . | C C C C , , , | $$ | X X X X X . . | X X X X X . . | , , , , , , , | $$ | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . | , , , , , , , | $$ | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . | , , , , , , , |[/go]
![white 2 :w2:](./images/smilies/w2.gif) A region on the board enclosed by such stones can be considered "owned" by this player / the player's stones if it is either unoccupied or every fenced opposing stone could be permanently removed.
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[go]$$B $$ +------------------------------------------------ $$ | . O . X O X . | C O C Z O X . | C S C C S , , | $$ | O O O O O X . | O O O O O X . | S S S S S , , | $$ | X X X X X X . | X X X X X X . | , , , , , , , | $$ | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . | , , , , , , , | $$ | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . | , , , , , , , |[/go]
![white 3 :w3:](./images/smilies/w3.gif) A group of stones that includes at least two such "owned" regions (either of which includes a board point, which occupation is permanently prohibited for the opponent), none of which is the sole connection between "owned" board points along the lines of the board, even if the opponent is allowed to move first, can be called "two-prohibited-point-formation".
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[go]$$B $$ +------------------------------------------------ $$ | . O . . X O X | C O C C Z O X | C S C C C S , | $$ | O O O O O O X | O O O O O O X | S S S S S S , | $$ | X X X X X X X | X X X X X X X | , , , , , , , | $$ | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . | , , , , , , , | $$ | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . | , , , , , , , |[/go]
An exemplary case.
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[go]$$Bm95 $$ +-------------------------------- $$ | M O . . X O X | 1 O . . X O X | $$ | O O O O O O X | O O O O O O X | $$ | X X X X X X X | X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . |[/go]
Q.e.d #1.
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[go]$$B $$ +-------------------------------- $$ | . O M . X O X | . O . 1 X O X | $$ | O O O O O O X | O O O O O O X | $$ | X X X X X X X | X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . 2 |[/go]
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[go]$$Bm95 $$ +---------------- $$ | . O 1 X X O X | $$ | O O O O O O X | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O |[/go]
Q.e.d. #2. ----------
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[go]$$B $$ +-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- $$ | . O . O O X . . . | . O M O O X . . . | , T M , , , , , , | , T M T , , , , , | $$ | X X O . O X . . . | X X O M O X . . . | , , T , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , | $$ | X . X O O X X . . | X . X O O X X . . | , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , | $$ | X X X X X O X . . | X X X X X O X . . | , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , | $$ | O O O O O O X . . | O O O O O O X . . | , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . . | , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . . | , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , |[/go]
Counter-example. ![white 4 :w4:](./images/smilies/w4.gif) All the stones forming a group of stones that ALREADY IS such "two-prohibited-point-formation" are firmly connected to each other, exclusively either directly next to each other or via unoccupied points along the lines of the board.
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[go]$$B $$ +-------------------------------- $$ | . O . O X . . | , Q , Q , , , | $$ | O O O O X . . | Q Q Q Q , , , | $$ | X X X X X . . | , , , , , , , | $$ | . . . . . . . | , , , , , , , | $$ | . . . . . . . | , , , , , , , |[/go]
Exemplary case #1.
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[go]$$B $$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ $$ | . O O X . . . | , Q Q , , , , | T Q , , , , , | , Q , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | $$ | O . O X . . . | , , Q , , , , | Q , , , , , , | Q T , , , , , | Q T Q , , , , | Q T , , , , , | $$ | X O O X . . . | , Q Q , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , Q , , , , , | $$ | X X X X . . . | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | $$ | . . . . . . . | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | $$ | . . . . . . . | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , |[/go]
Exemplary case #2. ![white 5 :w5:](./images/smilies/w5.gif) A group of stones that is not yet a "two-prohibited-point-formation" is successfully TRANSFORMED into a "two-prohibited-point-formation" if all the board points that were occupied or enclosed by the group of stones are still controlled by the resulting "two-prohibited-point-formation" after the transformation process.
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[go]$$B $$ +-------------------------------- $$ | . O X X . X . | C C , , , , , | $$ | X X O X X X X | C C C , , , , | $$ | O O O O . . . | C C C C , , , | $$ | . O . O . . . | C C C C , , , | $$ | O O O . . . . | C C C , , , , | $$ | . . . . . . . | , , , , , , , | $$ | . . . . . . . | , , , , , , , |[/go]
An exemplary case.
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[go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------------------------------- $$ | 1 O X X . X . | X 2 X X . X . | . O X X . X . | C C , , , , , | $$ | X X O X X X X | X X O X X X X | . . O X X X X | C C C , , , , | $$ | O O O O . . . | O O O O . . . | O O O O . . . | C C C C , , , | $$ | . O . O . . . | . O . O . . . | O O O O . . . | C C C C , , , | $$ | O O O . . . . | O O O . . . . | O O O . . . . | C C C , , , , | $$ | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . | , , , , , , , | $$ | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . | , , , , , , , |[/go]
Q.e.d. #1.
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[go]$$B pass $$ +---------------------------------------------------------------- $$ | 2 O X X . X . | O O X X . X . | O O X X . X . | C C , , , , , | $$ | X X O X X X X | 4 3 O X X X X | O . O X X X X | C C C , , , , | $$ | O O O O . . . | O O O O . . . | O O O O . . . | C C C C , , , | $$ | . O . O . . . | . O . O . . . | . O . O . . . | C C C C , , , | $$ | O O O . . . . | O O O . . . . | O O O . . . . | C C C , , , , | $$ | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . | , , , , , , , | $$ | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . | , , , , , , , |[/go]
Q.e.d. #2. A variation for Black. ---------- All you need is the distinction between "permanent" and "non-permanent".To simplify the count at the end of the game, the "non-permanent" in the "permanent" can be taken off the board to make its way into the corresponding prisoner's lid. No "or if capturing them" is required! No "seki" is required!---------- Overdetermination is an evil!"Every fourth even number that is dividable by 8, 4, and 2, shall be regulated by ..." This regulation refers to the set 8, 16, 24, 32, ... However, that set is overdeternined! ![black 1 :b1:](./images/smilies/b1.gif) Being dividable by 8 is an already existing property of every fourth even number. ![black 2 :b2:](./images/smilies/b2.gif) Being dividable by 4 is a property of numbers, which are dividable by 8. ![black 3 :b3:](./images/smilies/b3.gif) Being dividable by 2 is a property of numbers, which are dividable by 8, as well as by 4. ![black 4 :b4:](./images/smilies/b4.gif) An even number is defined by being dividable by 2. If a regulation for this set of numbers starts with "If a number is dividable by 4, then ...", then 4, 12, 20, ... are also included in the regulations, but must later be filtered out again at great expense. ---------- J89 uses a different concept for determining "VALUE". The property "being considered alive" is given to TWO DIFFERENT types of groups, one of which can enclose value (commonly known as "independently alive group") but the other cannot (commonly known as "seki"). The property "can be taken" applies to TWO DIFFENRENT types of stones commonly understood as "being alive", as well as to ANOTHER type of stones commonly understood as "being dead". This results in ![black 1 :b1:](./images/smilies/b1.gif) "being considered alive" AND NOT "can be taken" contains value. ![black 2 :b2:](./images/smilies/b2.gif) "being considered alive" AND NOT "can be taken" does not contain value. ![black 3 :b3:](./images/smilies/b3.gif) "being considered alive" AND "can be taken" contains value. ![black 4 :b4:](./images/smilies/b4.gif) "being considered alive" AND "can be taken" does not contain value. ![black 5 :b5:](./images/smilies/b5.gif) NOT "being considered alive" does not contain value. It should be easy to see that a further property is absolutely necessary in order to be able to differentiate between ![black 1 :b1:](./images/smilies/b1.gif) and ![black 2 :b2:](./images/smilies/b2.gif) as well as ![black 3 :b3:](./images/smilies/b3.gif) and ![black 4 :b4:](./images/smilies/b4.gif) . The property chosen is "possesses dame" (or whatever tranislation you prefer for "駄目を有する"). The list above becomes in a first step: ![black 1 :b1:](./images/smilies/b1.gif) "being considered alive" AND NOT "can be taken" contains value. ![black 2 :b2:](./images/smilies/b2.gif) "being considered alive" AND NOT "can be taken" AND "possesses dame" does not contain value. ![black 3 :b3:](./images/smilies/b3.gif) "being considered alive" AND "can be taken" contains value. ![black 4 :b4:](./images/smilies/b4.gif) "being considered alive" AND "can be taken" AND "possesses dame" does not contain value. ![black 5 :b5:](./images/smilies/b5.gif) NOT "being considered alive" does not contain value. However, the property "possess dame" is also given to two ![black 1 :b1:](./images/smilies/b1.gif) of different colours, which share unoccupied board points on their outside. Thus, the list above finally becomes: ![black 1 :b1:](./images/smilies/b1.gif) a) "being considered alive" AND NOT "can be taken" AND NOT "possesses dame" contains value. ![black 1 :b1:](./images/smilies/b1.gif) b) "being considered alive" AND NOT "can be taken" AND "possesses dame" does not contain value. ![black 2 :b2:](./images/smilies/b2.gif) "being considered alive" AND NOT "can be taken" AND "possesses dame" does not contain value. ![black 3 :b3:](./images/smilies/b3.gif) a) "being considered alive" AND "can be taken" AND NOT "possesses dame" contains value. ![black 3 :b3:](./images/smilies/b3.gif) b) "being considered alive" AND "can be taken" AND "possesses dame" does not contain value. ![black 4 :b4:](./images/smilies/b4.gif) "being considered alive" AND "can be taken" AND "possesses dame" does not contain value. ![black 5 :b5:](./images/smilies/b5.gif) NOT "being considered alive" does not contain value. To get rid of this not very likely unintended side-effect (of ![black 1 :b1:](./images/smilies/b1.gif) b) and ![black 3 :b3:](./images/smilies/b3.gif) b)), the players are implicitely enforced to occupy such shared unoccupied points outside their "independently alive" groups before the final counting starts. ---------- To be continued ... (simply scroll down)
_________________ The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htmIgo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
Last edited by Cassandra on Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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