Star-point joseki question

walleye · Post by **walleye** » Mon May 03, 2010 7:55 pm

What is the joseki after black plays :b1:

?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Redundant · Post by **Redundant** » Mon May 03, 2010 8:19 pm

A quick look at Kogo's gives this

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 0 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 1 X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 2 O O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

followed by

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X 4 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O O O O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Since this is Kogo's probably take it with a grain of salt and wait for a stronger player's opinion.

quantumf · Post by **quantumf** » Mon May 03, 2010 11:32 pm

Black has an enormous corner, while white has 2 points on the right hand side, and 5 stone dragon in the center. I'd be interested to know in what circumstances this can be a joseki.

Andreas · Post by **Andreas** » Tue May 04, 2010 1:03 am

White has sente and a ponnuki on the right side. Since white connected at the side in the initial joseki, one can assume that white didnt expect any trouble in a center fight (meaning blacks resulting center influence is probably not worth much), so the lower side group should be pretty safe. Any Framework black might have had on the lower side will be completely wasted now.

Of course, if connecting on the side instead of the center was already a mistake, the result will be bad for white... but then white just didnt read ahead enough.

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Tue May 04, 2010 5:07 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 3 2 . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This 'Noseki'?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O 2 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Should be played this way? But isn't 'a' huge and the corner aswell? And White has Sente to expand the right side.
On top, isn't connecting at 'a' better so that you can invade at 'b'?
I had to deal with this in my last game...

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Tue May 04, 2010 5:17 am

SoDesuNe wrote:On top, isn't connecting at 'a' better so that you can invade at 'b'?
I had to deal with this in my last game...

a or

they are both joseki played my professionals for centuries.
they both have good and bad.. sum up to zero gain.

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Tue May 04, 2010 5:49 am

And I always thought this is a bad result for White because of the shape. But okay, you always learn ^^

quantumf · Post by **quantumf** » Tue May 04, 2010 8:40 am

SoDesuNe wrote:And I always thought this is a bad result for White because of the shape. But okay, you always learn ^^

It is a bad shape, but on the other hand, black can't defend both cutting points in one move, and the corner is pretty big. So it's a reasonable result for both sides. However, I'm with you - I never play it, because the shape distresses me.

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Thu May 06, 2010 7:42 am

There's a saying that says "A ponnuki is worth 30 points." That obviously is not exact, but white has a lot more than two points on the right side here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X 4 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O O O O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I really don't know if this is truly joseki or not, but white definitely has more than two points here.

walleye · Post by **walleye** » Tue May 11, 2010 7:49 pm

This doesn't look like a joseki to me. It's not equal exchange for sure, unless white has large frameworks in upper right and lower left.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X 4 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O O O O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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