Not what I expected, but no worries. Connecting seems like the only move.

No turning back now!

Could y'explain why you chose to play this local follow-up immediately?

I think black's previous two moves were bad. They will serve only to make white indestructible in this area with a weak black group to harass. Black should have treated his stone lightly and finished the top joseki. His pincer forced white to play on the second line to make a base which is already good for him; later on, white may need to worry about the life of this group which will benefit black. White could not afford to play another local move to strengthen this group once black played tenuki.

I checked out the site he referenced (josekipedia) which indeed does have the variation he is playing marked as "ideal." I'm curious to see stronger players' comments on these moves.

loons: because it's shown as an ideal follow-up on josekipedia. like I said, I don't know this joseki very well, so since the moves are bright green, i'm playing them right away. if he plays tenuki, part of the experiment will be to see how big my local follow-up is. how would you play it?

You should try to understand the purpose of the moves instead of just playing them. You won't get stronger that way (2 stones, blah blah).

I wonder if he would have still played this variation on the following board

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Joseki (I believe)

@mw42 - I was being a little bit flip when I replied to Loons. I understand the strategic purpose to some extent. White gets cramped in gote (compare to the standard joseki where W shares the corner and extends to C11, with more room to extend down towards B's lower left corner), but Black has bad aji. What I don't understand is the placement of the individual stones, and so on. I couldn't explain to you why my latest move is sente -- but likewise, I couldn't explain to you why the slide into the corner in the {4-4, low approach, extend} joseki is sente (and indeed, some pros don't treat it as sente).

I would never memorize a joseki, move for move, and play it out by rote on kgs. It's no fun, among other things. But if I can't experiment with new joseki in a Malkovich game, where can I? I need to enter the hermeneutic circle somewhere.

But you have also made what is previously thin and rather uneasy group for white completely solid. I think an important part of being strong is to leave variations unplayed, particularly when this is an area where your opponent has more to lose than you.

Agreed. Like I said, I wouldn't have played that way if it wasn't considered joseki. I'm bad at figuring out when provoking my opponent to solidify himself is worth it; it doesn't seem crazy to me that getting this wall in sente actually is worth losing whatever aji remained in his position, and since it was listed as an even sequence I assumed it was even. Should I take it from all of the comments about this that playing this way is very unusual?

I don't know if it's unusual, but perhaps a bit early to make the wall. Anyway, I might well play this way as black in the same position...

Only move. So far I'm not altogether dissatisfied with this. I'll expect this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After which I will approach one of his corners, probably at a, b or c

Just to restate Shaddy's comment, the sequence doesn't seem particularly lossy to me (gain thickness facing a friendly 4-4), but this is a local follow-up, not part of the joseki proper- which your comments seem to suggest. Surely josekipedia or eidogo would elucidate this (unless I'm not current with this joseki , though bear in mind those are just wikis, I think). "Normal joseki" would end with 12... K17 (though it's by no means mandatory). White takes sente. Later, black normally will have the opportunity to add a variation of this (because it's slow for white to just remove this) and black might have changed his mind about what to do based on how the board evolved.

This is not actually even considered joseki anymore: black has too many ways to exploit the local aji so it's considered too good for him

Okay, I can see this now on josekipedia. It does say "continuation," not "joseki." I wasn't being very careful (which sort of defeats the purpose of being allowed to use dictionaries). Normally it will say something first like "black can tenuki," and since I didn't see that I got sloppy. That said, I accept all of the comments about how this continuation is premature without reservation.

Any further thoughts on how i might know these moves are really a "continuation", and not the joseki itself? Like I said, I know nothing about this joseki and I find it sort of intuitive that I get this wall to hem W in - and W didn't seem as thin to me as Aphelion suggested. He now looks a little overconcentrated, but what would I know.

Not sure about my next move. I like J3. It seems to make the lower left side subtly more dangerous for W without getting over-concentrated. It also discourages W from playing a ladder breaker around K3. I want to sit down when I'm not exhausted and think about how I respond to the inevitable clamp at B9... what the board looks like after that effects the value of moves elsewhere.

(Someone - mw42? was suggesting that I was in "lose two stones" territory in this game. Maybe so. But situations like this are where I feel like I learn how to use joseki - I have successfully gotten the stones down on the board in the correct order, and now I get a chance to think about the weaknesses and strengths that I've saddled myself with. Once I understand that, each move in the joseki will make a lot more sense to me.)

This is my sad, kyuish attempt at a probe. I can't decide between k4 and l17 . If I don't add a move at l17, all of my response to a white move there look cramped or risky. But it also looks like for me to move there would be over concentrated. So depending on his answer to this, I'll take one or the other.

After we finish this joseki, I'll make a keima enclosure in the upper right and any sort of invasion around l17 will be too cramped to be happy. If he decides to get cute and play the high variation without finishing up around r10, which is probably the most active line since our corners look the same, then I'll need to read out how precarious my group is.