This is not my impression.
Half of the time when people say 'hi' or 'bye' or 'gg' or 'thx' or whatever, I have the feeling that this is purely automatic, and really meaningless. A batch file could have been used instead and convey the same meaning.

I feel warmer and fuzzier if somebody actually makes the effort to type something resembling a sentence, like 'Hello, have a nice game'. At least they convey they care enough to make some effort and type a few letters. But even that can be meaningless, people just typing stuff out of habit, or to appear 'polite' and take the high road. To me, its the same as the whole silly mystique of people saying 'kifu' instead of 'game record' or 'moku' instead of 'point' and so on.

Personally, if there is something to say, and the opponents respect each other and the game, the conversation will arise organically, and then it will be meaningful. You make friends this way. But expecting, maybe even *demanding* that people say 'hi' to you and 'thx' after the game - you just being annoying. I think that pleasantries for the sake of pleasantries are meaningless.

Having said that, I try to always answer to 'hi' and 'bye' and 'gg' and all that, with the same cryptic and meaningless abbreviations. Why? Because it is easier this way, and I really do not wish to offend those poor souls who place value on such stuff.

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- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

I agree with Bantari. After I had been playing on KGS for a while I started playing online chess. At first I was surprised, and slightly irritated, to find that no-one else ever said "hi", "thx" or similar (and I'm not talking about blitz games). But then I realised that, since these exchanges on KGS are virtually meaningless, there is nothing wrong with the alternative convention of saying nothing. Actually I prefer it, because I dislike having to type meaningless letters just in case my opponent should think me rude.

Try making the comparison to real life. Is it meaningless when your wife or co-worker says "good morning"? Would you rather people not say "have a nice day"? These mindless utterings are also automatic and in the case of sales-people, even forced, but they have an effect on you and it's usually a positive one. Imagine that instead of saying "hi" and "thanks", people would say "kiss my a**" and "get lost." I prefer nice, and those who don't want to be nice can kiss my a**.


BTW @Joaz

noooO00b! :p Lolz

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Patience, grasshopper.

I suppose I have a slightly different take on it. Cultural differences mean a lot here I think, and ways of saying hello, thanks, and so on vary a lot between them, and also between people in the same culture. I have a fairly high confidence that I don't know enough about anyone else's preferences to assume anything based on their behaviour, so much like Chew I just go for assuming good faith.

If someone says "hi" to me, I'll respond, because I think it's courteous. If they don't respond to me, I'll assume either they can't, or that they don't think it's a polite thing to do, or that they think it's hypocritical, or whatever they want to think really, it's not going to bug me. I would assume either they don't realise I would feel that way, or that they are on a client that means they can't respond. It's possible they are choosing to be deliberately rude / offensive, but I consider it unlikely, and even if they were it's their problem, not mine.

I tend to start my games with "Have a great game " because a) I actually enjoy great games, and b) I just like being irrationally friendly to unknown people online - I think it sets a good first impression and a pleasant atmosphere, and that's something I like. The irony is, whilst I do wish them a good game, I'd be kidding myself if I denied that I'm also selfishly doing it so it sets a tone I personally feel more comfortable in.

Live and let live I guess

Just my 2p / 2c

Great feature request. Pls can KGS provide automation or scripting features so that I can give a standard greeting and conclusion without the tedious need to type it!

I am one of the poor souls bantari mentions.

I remember a chess game of Nigel Short where he claimed victory because his opponent Cheparinov rudely refused handshaking. Here it is: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4402


Do you expect a greeting/handshaking/good_game_wishing/... from your opponent in a over the board tournament game?
If yes, then why not online?
If no, I suppose it is because you find it "meaningless". Then the next question:

Do you expect your child/wife/colleague/... to greet you by saying for example good morning?
If yes, why do you think "good morning" is more meaningfull than "good game"?
If no, again I suppose it is because you find it "meaningless". Then the next question:

What kind of "meaning" do you expect at everything you do/every word you say in your daily life?

Is expecting a kind of mechanical meaning from every single word and action in your daily life meaningful itself?

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If you say no, Elwood and I will come here for breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day of the week.

It often is meaningless. Just canned responses.

Try answering a "How are you?" with a "Not too well this morning..." Many people won't even notice, or never intended to start up a real conversation beyond the canned responses.

That is exactly what I meant by "mechanical meaning" in my previous post.
You are trying to give it a mechanical meaning. Of course "how are you" is not a question that expects an answer. Of course it does not intend to transmit or receive any information.

It has a different kind of social meaning. It helps to some poor souls feel slightly better. That is the meaning of it, nothing more.

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If you say no, Elwood and I will come here for breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day of the week.

IMO, when "politeness" becomes a protocol, it loses meaning. In other words, if the expectation is for you to say, "Thanks for the game", it doesn't mean much when the other person says it, because they are just saying it because of the protocol. If I had my way, I think that the correct "protocol" would be to not have a protocol, and simply be genuine with one another. In other words, I would prefer it if people just typed what they wanted to.

Because of this, I am not offended at all when somebody does not say "thanks for the game" at the end of the game, and just leaves. Apparently, their true feeling was one of wanting to leave without saying anything.

If I want to force somebody to adhere to some social standard against their will, does it really mean anything? I don't really think so, myself.

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be immersed

Well, it's not your review. You can always open your own if you want one. In some cases it would make sense, but what if your opponent went through and marked out his variations, then left intending to finish reviewing the game later. Then he comes back and finds his review is filled with *YOUR* variations, and he's lost track of what he was thinking about. See the point?

So probably the right thing would be to make it easier for you to start your own review.

We all should want folks to say "thank you" and "Hello" Such efforts are never meaningless.

I am not saying we should make anyone do anything. And we should strive not to be upset when they do not. Certainly the guy who refuses to play if he does not get a sufficent greeting within 4 moves is not adding to the civility of online go.

We should attempt, however "meaninglessly", to reach out because it takes two people to play this game.

There is a wonderful connection when you play someone at a club face to face. You make eye contact, you sort out the handicap, maybe choose for color, sometimes hand the bowls to one another. There is a palpable feeling of embarking on a task, a journey, together.

Clicking on a match request and having a game pop up does not create such a feeling. When I type "Hello and good luck" I am trying to create it, if nothing else, to remind myself that I am not alone with my rank graph, I am playing with...not against...with some other person. And I want his connection to be strong, his phone not to ring, his mouse not to slip. I want to win, but I want to win because I played better, not because of a lucky for me distraction.

It is not a meaningless gesture. I am reminded of "To Kill a Mockingbird" when the mob tries to lynch Atticus Finch's client. Tom Robinson's life was not saved that night by the lawyer's eloquence, bravery or rightness. He was not saved because the mob realized its racism and anger were wrong. He was saved because Scout saw a man she recognized and said "Hey Mr. Cunningham" That one, not even the most polite, "Hey" turned the mob into a bunch of individuals, none willing to do alone what they would gladly have done together.

So I make sure I turn the mob of the internet into an individual I am playing with. This is healthly for me, it prevents me from assuming that moves I think are mistakes simply because they pop up "stupidly" on the screen. There is a person on the other end of these moves, a thinking person who is not always stupider than me.

After the game is even more important. Again, face to face we work together, seperating the stones of our struggle and putting them away, along with much of the frustration of defeat. You are forced to chat, laugh at yourself, and discuss, however briefly, what you have just done together.

On KGS, done and it is gone. When I finish a game, win or lose I do not leave. My opponent usually types "thx" or nothing and leaves before I can type "Thank you very much for the game". When this happens, I find them and pm them "Thank you very much for the game" - not out of anger, but simply because I want to thank them.

Invariably, they are already playing another game. People often talk about how streaky they are online. I think this is a cause. They lose, get angry and try to erase the loss on their rank graph without any reflection on why they lost, no effort to regain some composure, they simply run off to make the same mistakes again.

We are better go players when we acknowledge each other, learn from each other, and take the time to value and digest our efforts together.

If online go is to be the future, and it will certainly be a great part of the future, I want it to be an online community of folks playing together, not alone with only a rank graph for company. "Hi" and "thx" are the first, albeit baby, steps in building that community. If 96% of them are meaningless to others, none are meaningless to ourselves.

And if 1% means a new player keeps coming to KGS because it does not seem a rude place, and 3% lead to a chat that could start a friendship - look at your game lists - that can really add up.

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My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle

@HKA:
The ideal that I feel from your post certainly seems admirable to me. I think that connecting with people on the Internet is a great thing.

The only thing that I'm a bit skeptical of is the degree to which "Hi" and "thx" build a community. They are just words, after all, and without feeling behind them, I do not see how they do much to add toward any sort of connection - especially when they become a habit, just because of what is deemed as "etiquette" on a go server. In other words, if everyone always says, "Hi" or "thx", it does not seem much different to me than the case where nobody speaks at all.

I also desire the communal connection that I feel from what you describe, but I feel that it should start with sincerity rather than some forced or assumed etiquette.

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be immersed

Nope, I do not see the point. I am pretty sure that the use case you are describing is very rare. More than 95% of the time, the opponent just leaves the game without bothering to give back control.
And even if what you say is true, he wants to continue his review later, then he can save it at least to local disk and I guess also to the database and continue from there.

I often experienced this when a friend of mine watched my game and after the opponent left, I wanted to show something to my friend, or he wanted to show something to me - no chance, I have to direct him to another instance of the game. Sure, it is possible, but given the typical situation, I definitely agree that this would better be changed.

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Stay out of my territory! (W. White, aka Heisenberg)

If it was made "easier for you to start your own review", it seems that the issue would be resolved.

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be immersed

I didn't think of that, and I'm not clear on exactly how the server handles reviews. Does this mean that if I review something, then close the window or disconnect (for whatever reason), my opponent closes the window, without hitting the save button in the dialogue, I'll then be able to access my review later? How?

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Occupy Babel!

When I first started to exchange "mails" with native English speakers, especially Americans (early 90s, CompuServe), I was fairly put off by the "Name," beginning in letters and notes. No "Hello Name," or "Dear Name", just "Name,". You just don't do that in German, and if you did, it would signal aggression or annoyance with the receiver. After I noticed this a few times, I asked about it (I made sure the person I asked didn't have issues with me!) and learned that it was pretty much custom, not at all intended to offend, and certainly not an expression of negative feelings. Even after I learned this, it still seemed "wrong".

Anyway, as for online matches, I wish my opponent an enjoyable game and thank them at the end, often with a brief, positive comment ("Really well played in the upper right!"). That said, I don't mind if people are quiet, though when someone loses and just leaves wordlessly, it feels a little off. But that's preference and if someone doesn't want to type something, then I respect that.

Mivo,

(sorry, couldn't resist). Anyway, that's an interesting anecdote, and it really shows to me how what is perfectly normal for one set of people can be incredibly rude for another.

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We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

Then be sincere.

Seriously, when I say "hi, how are you doing" to the people I encounter in daily life, what I express is something like "I'm here, I'll pay attention to you if you want to talk." Or perhaps just "I won't blow you off completely if you start talking to me", since sometimes, I really am in a hurry to get back to work. Most of those conversations go nowhere, because no one has anything to say, but it's not wasted because sometimes they do go somewhere.

I'm not naturally good at talking to people without a specific topic, or context (I'm definitely this guy: http://xkcd.com/222/). Pleasantries are something I only get in a pretty intellectualized way. But I think it's a really bad habit to go from "this doesn't come naturally to me" to "this is meaningless." Is HKA an unthinking sheep, incapable of meaningful connections with other people just because he thinks it's important to routinely greet his go opponents? Do the folks who say pleasantries are meaningless have so much deeper connections to the people around them?

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Occupy Babel!

What's wrong with friction?

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be immersed

I doubt it. I think greeting opponents is fine. I just don't think that it's the greeting itself that creates a meaningful connection. I think it's what's behind the greeting.



Not necessarily. I just don't think that a greeting, in itself, is related to a deeper connection. Whether I have a deep connection or not does not seem to have a correlation to whether I hit the keys "t", "h", and "x" on my keyboard.



Perhaps I have just been around some sneaky people - and I don't appreciate hidden motives. I would rather someone be rude to me but honest and open, than someone be polite with a secret agenda. That said, of course I don't believe that greeting your opponent means you have a secret agenda. I just don't see a real relationship between a socially standard greeting and someone's true feelings.

If someone says, "Hi, have a good game", then all the more power to them. But typing this text, in itself, does not seem to have much meaning if it is merely habit.


tl/dr: When such a greeting becomes so routine that there is no feeling behind it, I do not see much value in it. That's because it's the feeling which is the source of sincerity.

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be immersed