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Offline Mnemonic
 Post subject: Big Brother Malkovich #4
Post #1 Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:57 am 
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So I decided to start this because it seemed weird to add another middle brother in the 4k range. Since my Team is likely to be a bit stronger I put us down as white (but it’s still an even game, no?)

Team Black:

Simba (8k)
Topazg (1-2d)

Team White:

Mnemonic (8k-7k)
Violence (3d)

Rules:
In the other BB games there has been discussion about using Chinese scoring so that we don't have to track prisoners; I like that Idea :D Other than that we are using a quota system starting with 9 corrections each. We will gain an extra correction after 5 consecutive moves without a change. The number of corrections is not limited so can grow higher than say 10.

Good game and good luck to my opponents!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 - B:9(0) W:9(0)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Aphelion
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4
Post #2 Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:18 am 
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:( You could have made my changes more expensive to compensate.
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Offline Simba
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4
Post #3 Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:18 pm 
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Best of luck to everyone :) , hope it's a good game for all!

Aphelion: Hmm :( , if you could find other people interested, I'd be fine to play another game as part of a team.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 - B:9(1) W:9(0)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm an influence/moyo based player on the whole, so hoshi points suit me well. I don't have much experience really with komoku or any other starting move, so I'd rather keep in familiar territory to begin with.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4
Post #4 Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:44 pm 
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I think I can approve that one :)
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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4
Post #5 Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:09 pm 
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If you incorporated Aph into Violence's team, I could perhaps counterweight that on topazg's team.

Edit:
In my opinion it mightbe better to inject another pair of players here than kick off another game with the same people. Also I'm nominally stronger than Aph by twoish stones, so it would average the ranks out.

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Offline Mnemonic
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4
Post #6 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:32 am 
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I'll wait with responding to the move until we figure out our Team configuration. The reason why I already started the thread was that we already had a working and agreed upon configuration before we started talking about adding a new player. After discussing it for a bit it seemed there was no real consensus and we were eager to play so ...

I always thought the rank difference between players should be 4+ stones whereas the difference between me and Aph and Loons and topazg is 3.

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4
Post #7 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:00 am 
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It was originally raised as a 2v2, and we've got the ability to get cracking with that. 2v2 has the advantage of moving a fair bit faster than 3v3 as well. However, there aren't enough of these, so maybe Loons and Aph should be the captains of another 2v2?

I don't particularly object to changing this one, but it's beginning to feel like a red-tape exercise :P
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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4
Post #8 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:25 am 
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Oh, yes, I didn't mean to press the issue, was just speculating. By all means, continue.

Good luck as Violence's opposite number especially, topazg.

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4
Post #9 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:35 am 
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Sorry, I wasn't meaning to be so blunt. I think BB formats are good, see if you can find a team member if you do want to play one, it would be nice to have more happening!

Thanks RE: the luck - I actually suspect with the corrections that neither myself nor violence will have a huge impact - and besides, it's only really for learning and fun anyway :)
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Offline robinz
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4
Post #10 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:14 am 
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I'd happily volunteer to be a "little brother" in a new game. (I would have volunteered for this one, but Mnemonic and Simba got in before me :D)

(If serious discussions do take place about a new game, though, I would suggest we move them to another thread to avoid littering up this one - Big Brother games seem to take up enough posts anyway...)
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Offline Simba
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4
Post #11 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:59 am 
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Ah, so Loons, you're ~3k? In that case, we could start up another game: Aphelion (4k) and me (7k) against Loons (3k) and Robinz (9k) :) . I'm happy for that - if you guys are fine with that, we could start that ^_^ . Aphelion is only 3 ranks stronger than me, but it would be more fair this way since 4 + 7 is quite close to 3 + 9. If you guys prefer that Loons goes with me and Aphelion goes with Robinz, I have no problem with that either. Whatever's good for you guys :) .
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Offline robinz
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4
Post #12 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:14 am 
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My rank is fairly approximate anyway, given how little I've managed to play (either f2f or on KGS) this year. Somewhere around 8 or 9k, probably - but no-one should be surprised if I make moves that a 15k would be ashamed of :lol:
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Offline Aphelion
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4
Post #13 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:01 am 
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Sorry, I didn't mean to derail this discussion. I have no problems with the proposal by Simba, it would be nicer to have 3 ppl per team though.
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Offline Mnemonic
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4
Post #14 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:19 pm 
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Since the argument seems to be over I'll make my move now

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 - B:9(1) W:9(0)
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Some variation of how the first few moves chould go.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 - B:9(1) W:9(0)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 - B:9(1) W:9(0)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4
Post #15 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:38 pm 
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Approved.

This post by Violence was liked by: Mnemonic
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Offline Simba
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4
Post #16 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:36 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 - B:9(1) W:9(0)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Another hoshi point. This is the first time ever (I think!) that I'm playing a diagonal fuseki, but I think this is as good a time as any to learn. I'm playing this move aiming at an approach to the top left (probably the high approach since I have the hoshi stone in the bottom left now). If white chooses to make a shimari in the top left, I'll just take the other corner on the remaining hoshi point. If white kakaris my bottom left hoshi stone around C6, I think I'll tenuki and take the remaining corner. I'm comfortable enough with hoshi joseki to let him double kakari the hoshi stone in the bottom left.
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Offline Mnemonic
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4
Post #17 Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:42 am 
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Trigger, if approved:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 - B:9(2) W:9(1)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4
Post #18 Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:43 pm 
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Offline Mnemonic
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4
Post #19 Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:57 pm 
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If this is the first correction then I am sorry, Violence :sad:

Other thoughts:
This is basically some Metagame analysis, so bear with me (or not, you decide :mrgreen: ):

I'm guessing there are 3 parts to a Big Brother Malkovich game.


1: Opening
The opening consists of players trading plays based mostly on intuition and experience and most of these plays are of equal value. The player with more experience or more fuseki knowledge will do slightly (ever so slightly) better on each move and might eke out a 5 or 10 point lead at the end of the opening. What this means is that the Big Brothers will almost never change an opening move by a younger brother so the younger brothers are essentially playing against themselves. This would probably also apply to endgame but since we've never seen a BB game go to endgame I can't say anything for certain.
Since I'm a self professed opening nut and have played at least 6 months longer than Simba I think we have an advantage here.

2: Reading
With reading I not only mean complex L&D sequences but also obscure joseki that no 7k could possibly know or guess. Even if I or Simba magically got 4 or 5 stones stronger the dan players could and will still out read us! The point swings to a dan correction are probably in the 20+ range so the Big Brothers will have an easy time deciding on a correction. It is also likely that if one of the Big Brothers changes a move the other Big Brother will have to respond with a correction (or risk a 20+ moku loss) This will likely still be true if one of the smaller Brothers is a lot stronger than the other (given enough strength difference to the Big Brothers)

3: Middlegame
Middlegame is basically attack and defense. The problem with this is that the point swings are not so extreme (maybe 5 moku) than if some important killing tesuji is missed. The Big Brothers will have a harder time justifying a change, especially if short on changes! Also the answer to a direction of play change is often easy so that corrections are not as easily exchanged as in the reading part.
If one younger Brother consistently outplays the other in this category the game will go south!
I'm a little bit worried. Simba has been playing since 2 months whereas I've been playing since 9. Even if you discount some slow periods I've still needed 5 months to my current strength. My goal is 5k after a year, his is shodan :shock: Also, several analysis of my games indicate that this is the weakest area of my game whereas he claims this is his strongest. :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad:

My estimate of how to win Big Brother Malkovich games:
1) Mostly Younger Brothers Ability: around 20%
2) Mostly Big Brothers Ability: around 20%
3) Younger Brothers Ability + Teamwork: 60%
Conclusion: Even if the other team is stronger, if the younger brother manages to hit some key points in the middlegame and has good Teamwork with his Big Brother they will win!

Some statistics from the BB#2
Category 1: There were 2 changes made, both of them did not lead to immediate counter change by the opposing color and both of them were questioned by stronger players!
Category 2: Honestly there weren't too many changes in this category (maybe I have to search BB#1 for this, but I'm not THAT bored) 3 corrections, 2 with immediate counter corrections.
Category 3: A total of 11 corrections in this category, only one was answered by a correction!

Obviously my above statistic is highly subjective, but I hope that anyone following Malkovich games can see some similarity with my observations.

tl:dr
We're likely to win this game :mrgreen:

Edit: So tengen 4th move is a bad play :scratch:

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"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4
Post #20 Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:56 pm 
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Approved, and our turn again :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 - B:9(1) W:9(0)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Though, to be honest, I don't like diagonal games particularly, especially with 4-4s. However, we can approach the top left, and approach the lower right later, maybe something like here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 - B:9(1) W:9(0)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . B . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Let's play for something big :)
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