Yithril vs. Chew Terr

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phrax
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Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr

Post by phrax »

Chew Terr wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Dealing with it simply. Granting white stability in the corner is unhappy and unfortunate, but I see no way to avoid it. Now I'm hoping that W will stabilize in the corner with gote (IE with R3) so that I can tenuki to claim a big point elsewhere. Obviously I still have some advantage on the board, but I seem to be bleeding handicap gradually. If I do get sente, I'll have to look around carefully, to consider direction of play. That said, if my opponent doesn't take R3, it's huge for me.
edit: Apparently it's too early to type without typos.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a b O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . O X 4 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
SDK thoughts: I wonder if above is better for black (versus Chew's 14 below), to put more pressure on splitting a possible white jump to 'a'. Also, the below diagram seems to provide white with better opportunities. But I'm not sure if my thought process is flawed. Any thoughts if its a good idea or horribly wrong?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . O X 6 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Violence
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Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr

Post by Violence »

@phrax
Ok, I could be a douchebag dan player and say that Chew Terr is playing joseki and leave it at that.

But of course, that doesn't actually answer your question at all, so here's how I would explain it.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O 1 . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This sequence is normal, and black tenuki's.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . O X 1 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Can black tenuki here?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . O X 1 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I would call this almost sente for white, if not now, then in the future, the cut becomes a big problem. Even if black responds to it, the cut becomes dependent on a ladder. Black's position here turns very fragile and weak.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . O X 1 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O 3 . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So... you might have to respond here, it's at least a prudent play, I would say. But then.... don't you feel stupid?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . O X 3 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O 1 . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
It's like you exchanged 1 for 2, and then played 3. It feels a bit herp derpy, no?

That's how I see it, anyway.
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Redundant
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Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr

Post by Redundant »

@phrax
Violence did a good job explaining this joseki. It's good to know that this joseki has a follow up sequence like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . O X 4 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Then white can tenuki knowing that he's gotten a little bit more influence here in sente, and can look at the clamp at a for large endgame.
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yithril
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Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr

Post by yithril »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Nein Mann, ich will noch nicht gehen, ich will noch 'n bisschen tanzen.
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Chew Terr
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Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr

Post by Chew Terr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . q . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b c . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Okay, it happened like I was kind of expecting, and white took gote to stabilize in the corner. Fine, can't blame him. Now, like I said, I want to find a valuable place to spend my sente. The first things I considered were the top corners, versus the bottom and left sides. Because c14 and M3 are low, developing the sides is a bit less efficient than it could be. However, the knight move was still reasonable, because it prevents having that corner taken, to some degree. Then I started considering 'c', because it does more with the top left stones, even if they're low and far. Then I looked at 'd' and fell in love. I don't know any joseki for it (my opponent probably will) and it may be a situation where I'm trying too hard to do too many things. However, I swear I've seen it in pro games, and it seems like an interesting way to move fast and gain influence. This moves fast enough that it almost looks like I can get a respectable chunk of one side or the other, though it may be more invadable than a solid move. So I'll play this move to learn about it.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Kirby
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Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr

Post by Kirby »

Black's last move is interesting.
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Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr

Post by Kirby »

@Chew:
Can you explain more about your choice of 'd' over 'c'? What aspects of 'd' do you like better than 'c'?
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Chew Terr
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Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr

Post by Chew Terr »

Admittedly, I'm not sure what sorts of shapes/patterns this can morph into. However, I have groups in both directions, but far away. I wanted something with central influence, but I wanted something fast, so that it spread its influence further. Kind of like san-ren-sei, my plan is to go fast and loose to either invite an invasion or solidify a lot when pushed from outside.

No idea if this move does all of this as well as I'm hoping, though.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr

Post by Kirby »

@Chew:
Good plan. It's an interesting move to me. It'll be cool to see how the game develops. :tmbup:
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Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr

Post by yithril »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . X X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So it may seem odd I let Black get a solid shape this early in the game. Normally White tries to play weird shapes to force a mistake, but I hate games like that. In 4 stone games my plan is to win by 1-2 points at the end, to leverage my reading ability to live in places that might be too difficult and to slowly erase the lead. I also have a sente sequence to reduce his influence in one direction.

Attaching here seems right as the 3,3 point hands him useful influence and trying to make a group at the bottom hands him the corner.
Nein Mann, ich will noch nicht gehen, ich will noch 'n bisschen tanzen.
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Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr

Post by Mnemonic »

I also really like blacks last play. IMO no sdk would ever play it. It's been repeatedly been beaten into me by stronger players that you should never play this move, so this has to be either a ddk mistake or a dan level tesuji. :mrgreen:
Either way, I'm interested how both players handle this stone.
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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Post by EdLee »

Mnemonic wrote:I also really like blacks last play...this has to be either a ddk mistake or...
You mean the 2-space jump :b16: ? The shape is a bit thin, but it's difficult to say whether it's a mistake.
W will no doubt try to exploit its weakness, if any, at some point.
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Re:

Post by judicata »

EdLee wrote:
Mnemonic wrote:I also really like blacks last play...this has to be either a ddk mistake or...
You mean the 2-space jump :b16: ? The shape is a bit thin, but it's difficult to say whether it's a mistake.
W will no doubt try to exploit its weakness, if any, at some point.
I've definitely heard Guo Juan say that the two-space jump from the 4-4 is usually worse than the large keima or one-space jump. Of course, that can't always be the case.
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Kirby
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Re: Re:

Post by Kirby »

judicata wrote:
EdLee wrote:
Mnemonic wrote:I also really like blacks last play...this has to be either a ddk mistake or...
You mean the 2-space jump :b16: ? The shape is a bit thin, but it's difficult to say whether it's a mistake.
W will no doubt try to exploit its weakness, if any, at some point.
I've definitely heard Guo Juan say that the two-space jump from the 4-4 is usually worse than the large keima or one-space jump. Of course, that can't always be the case.
This is kind of what I was thinking, too. Although, on this board, I like the way Chew's move seems to have balance with other areas on the board in terms of influence.
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Chew Terr
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Re: Yithril vs. Chew Terr

Post by Chew Terr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . 8 O . . . . . . . X X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Uh oh, he switched to the 30k book for his icon after I made my dramatic move. Coincidence? ;-)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 X . . . . . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 3 . . 5 . 6 . X X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So, my original thought was to confine this stone to the corner, and build an eastward-facing wall. However, I thought about it. First, my opponnet has some aji in those stones attached to my southeastern group, so he could do some to keep me from developing there. Second, forcing my opponent to live on the corner (probably in gote) would allow me sente to develop the left, after netting me those corner points. I may even be able to exchange something like 6 for 7, threatening to weaken the 1-5 stones. If I get that stone, my bottom group will be well-defended. I'll still have to decide about that exchange, but I like the idea of developing the left swiftly. I can never decide between the 8s, but I'll look some more.
edit: forgot to actually play my move!
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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