It is currently Mon May 12, 2025 11:45 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 69 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The history of go rules
Post #61 Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:45 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
Quote:
Bill Spight wrote:
I would not particularly be surprised if some strange seki made the modern group tax give a different answer from not counting eye points necessary for life. :)


I guess this is an example (presented on a 4x8 board), taken from SL - Strange Sekis. There's only one eye point, so "modern stone scoring" doesn't get the same parity as stone scoring even.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------
$$ | . X X O |
$$ | O X X O |
$$ | O O O O |
$$ | O . X X |
$$ | X X X . |
$$ | . . X X |
$$ | O O O O |
$$ | X X X . |
$$ ---------[/go]


Yes, Black would be taxed 2 pts. instead of 1. :mrgreen:

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The history of go rules
Post #62 Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:28 am 
Beginner

Posts: 18
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 0
Rank: igs10k
#53-#59 Go on to play!The game doesn't end

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The history of go rules
Post #63 Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:35 am 
Beginner

Posts: 18
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 0
Rank: igs10k
Bill Spight wrote:
Mef wrote:
All right then, let's up the ante (=

How about this one?

(Position taken from SL - Strange Sekis)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . O O . X X . O O . |
$$ | X X O X O . X O X X |
$$ | X X O X O O X O X X |
$$ | O O O X X X X O O O |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


Does B get charged for 4 groups or 3?


Three. :)

I would not particularly be surprised if some strange seki made the modern group tax give a different answer from not counting eye points necessary for life. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | X . X O . . .
$$ | X X O . O . .
$$ | O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]


Does Black have one group or two? ;)

one

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The history of go rules
Post #64 Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:49 am 
Beginner

Posts: 18
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 0
Rank: igs10k
what is the group tax you talk about?
maybe ,i have a misunderstand

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The history of go rules
Post #65 Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:24 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 852
Location: Central Coast
Liked others: 201
Was liked: 333
Rank: KGS [-]
GD Posts: 428
flygo2626 wrote:
what is the group tax you talk about?
maybe ,i have a misunderstand


In some rulesets (though it not very common in modern play), players are charged a 2 point penalty for each group they have on the end of the board. This thread has discussing (amongst other things) the history of this rule and how it may have originated in a similar scoring method, stone counting, where players earn a point for each stone they have on the board at the end of the game (since you cannot fill eyes of a living group, you cannot get points for those two stones). In practice, the idea of filling the whole board up with stones at the end of the game may seem a bit tedious for the players, so instead they count the area they could have filled up and you get something similar to territory scoring. The group tax is introduced to keep the difference in territory count the same as the difference stone count.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The history of go rules
Post #66 Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:50 am 
Beginner

Posts: 18
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 0
Rank: igs10k
Mef wrote:
flygo2626 wrote:
what is the group tax you talk about?
maybe ,i have a misunderstand


In some rulesets (though it not very common in modern play), players are charged a 2 point penalty for each group they have on the end of the board. This thread has discussing (amongst other things) the history of this rule and how it may have originated in a similar scoring method, stone counting, where players earn a point for each stone they have on the board at the end of the game (since you cannot fill eyes of a living group, you cannot get points for those two stones). In practice, the idea of filling the whole board up with stones at the end of the game may seem a bit tedious for the players, so instead they count the area they could have filled up and you get something similar to territory scoring. The group tax is introduced to keep the difference in territory count the same as the difference stone count.

Thank you.It looks like I understood it right .

In Chinese Ancient Time,the method to keep the difference in territory count the same as the difference stone count ,is called "还棋头"(HuanQiTou),if allow me to name it by English,I will call it “return(or repay) stone” . The method is introduced in the #52 post by my poor English,I hope English-speakers could undstand what I said.

In my personal opinion ,I don't like the name "group tax",it dosen't express exactly。
Tell you the trurh ,many go term in English are deviate seriously from their original meaning in Chinese ,that has made many misunderstanding about the go game ,many unnecessary difficulties for starters .
It looks lke "group tax" needs counting 2 points for each group .How dose "还棋头"(HuanQiTou work?
For example under the Chiniese rule changed a little:
Change the object in Chinese go rule to "stones more win", delet some unnecessary concept deffined extra about territory, when it appears seki(both alive ),divide the shared liberties equally by two sides,
and then count ,at last do the "还棋头HuanQiTou" (I call it return or repay stone ) I wrote in #52 post .the last score is right for win or losing ,it's unnecessary to deduct 2 points(eyes or shared liberties) for each group extra in the counting,you only count the groups each side has , it's enough.
,we can apply it "还棋头HuanQiTou' under Japanese rule (after some changes )too.

Of couse ,you can immediately count except eyes(and shared liberties) ,not to use the "还棋头HuanQiTou' or "the group tax" .

In ancient ,there is a clear concept "road" differernt from territory,which is where you can place stone on it,of couse it dosen't includes the eyes and shared liberties.
The stone on the board just likes a person,it must has air(you can think it as air ,power,energy and something for living .it's translated to liberty) to breath to live,so it generates "living stone" and "dead stone" naturally 。other terms also have interesting meaning in Chinese ,which are easy to understand.
I hope that perfect translations will come soon.
I really hope what I wrote could help friends to undertand the rules in ancient and in the mordern,the difference between them ,some go concepts' original meaning in Chinese

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The history of go rules
Post #67 Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:41 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2508
Liked others: 1304
Was liked: 1128
flygo2626 wrote:
Tell you the trurh ,many go term in English are deviate seriously from their original meaning in Chinese ,that has made many misunderstanding about the go game ,many unnecessary difficulties for starters .
....
The stone on the board just likes a person,it must has air(you can think it as air ,power,energy and something for living .it's translated to liberty) to breath to live,so it generates "living stone" and "dead stone" naturally 。other terms also have interesting meaning in Chinese ,which are easy to understand.
I hope that perfect translations will come soon.


This is off-topic, but I would like to hear more about the differences between the English and Chinese go words. English go words often come from Japanese words, but they sometimes use different concepts, probably concepts more familiar to English speakers. Nonetheless, knowing the original (Japanese and Chinese) words and meanings might help English speakers to understand the ideas better. Do you have some more examples?

_________________
Patience, grasshopper.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The history of go rules
Post #68 Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:50 am 
Beginner

Posts: 18
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 0
Rank: igs10k
daal wrote:
flygo2626 wrote:
Tell you the trurh ,many go term in English are deviate seriously from their original meaning in Chinese ,that

has made many misunderstanding about the go game ,many unnecessary difficulties for starters .
....
The stone on the board just likes a person,it must has air(you can think it as air ,power,energy and something

for living .it's translated to liberty) to breath to live,so it generates "living stone" and "dead stone" naturally

。other terms also have interesting meaning in Chinese ,which are easy to understand.
I hope that perfect translations will come soon.


This is off-topic, but I would like to hear more about the differences between the English and Chinese go words.

English go words often come from Japanese words, but they sometimes use different concepts, probably concepts more

familiar to English speakers. Nonetheless, knowing the original (Japanese and Chinese) words and meanings might

help English speakers to understand the ideas better. Do you have some more examples?

Thank you for your postreply.
Maybe it's off-topic,but i think it's important to understand the differences between the ancient go and modern

go,the Culture Connotation of the go----especially the liberty(i think it's better to use air or breath)concept,so

that it could do better to lead us to think the rules in a right way.
The go is a game of living (life) with humanity Culture and philosophy,if understand this , we can enjoy it much better .
"Do you have some more examples?"---I'm willing to do my best!
BTW ,who could give me some suggestion about a certain dictionary about the origin and development of English words?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The history of go rules
Post #69 Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:21 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2508
Liked others: 1304
Was liked: 1128
flygo2626 wrote:
BTW ,who could give me some suggestion about a certain dictionary about the origin and development of English words?


What you are looking for is called an etymological dictionary. Here are 2 you can look at online:

http://www.etymonline.com/
http://www.myetymology.com/

_________________
Patience, grasshopper.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 69 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group