How to lose the corners and the center and still win big

tchan001 · Post by **tchan001** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:11 am

Just wanted to share this game. Not the best moves, but surely an interesting result.

blade90 · Post by **blade90** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:05 am

First of all I'm also a KGS 5k, and I'm not talking about your moves but that of your opponent, however you did lose the corners but not really the center since you killed of a big group near it

A game like this makes me wonder how Black made it to 5k, everyone should learn why the 3-3 point invasion at the beginning is usually bad (if you follow a strategy it's ok). But Black even tenukis after 10, this is a mistake (not that I think that the invasion is good) and Black even makes the same mistake in the LR corner, below I explain what I mean.
After that Black created one weak group after another with moves like:

and

, you used these overplays by splitting and attacking him and turned it into a big fight, that you did win. That was well done, I don't think I could have done that

Here a bit about the "bad" plays in the corner by Black. Maybe you already know this, but beginners might want to know this.
Normally the joseki is something like this: (sorry I reversed the colors in the diagramms)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Joseki $$ ------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 9 7 8 . . . . $$ | . . O X . 0 . . . $$ | . . 1 X . . . . . $$ | . 3 2 . . . . . . $$ | . 5 4 . . . . . . $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

This is normal but it is better for Black, because Black's wall (influence) is more worth then White's territory which is about 10 points.

But if White tenukis after 6, Black can press White down.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B If W tenukis $$ ------------------- $$ | . 4 . . . . . . . $$ | . 2 1 3 . . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . a $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . O X . . . . . . $$ | . O X . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

I believe 4 is needed to live, so Black has sente to answer White's move or play an extension somewhere around "a".
White's teritorry is even smaller now and he didn't really gain much from playing elsewhere.
Overall black took the corners because he plays for territory, but then he throws away his strategy to attack you after he made you strong, a very strange play. If he waned to attack you or didn't like your influence , he should not have taken the corners in the first place.

I say that the 3-3 invasion in the fuseki is bad, but that's my opinion.
If what anything I said above is wrong, then please correct me! I'm not a strong player and always happy to learn more

.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:47 am

Some basic shape problems, bad habits (in particular, reducing your own libs):

speedchase · Post by **speedchase** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:00 am

I am still wondering why your opponent started what is essentially a flower-picking ko over for his own group to live...

jts · Post by **jts** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:40 pm

speedchase wrote:I am still wondering why your opponent started what is essentially a flower-picking ko over for his own group to live...

Well, with T12 it's pretty weird, but if he had ataried the stone in the other direction (from S11) it would be a standard desperate endgame ko... Black is putting more at risk, but he's behind to begin with, and it's a big ko for both sides, since if W follows through on his threat his group dies.

Even as it was played in the game, B would have gained points if he had ignored w264.

blade90 · Post by **blade90** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:46 pm

jts wrote:
speedchase wrote:I am still wondering why your opponent started what is essentially a flower-picking ko over for his own group to live...
Well, with T12 it's pretty weird, but if he had ataried the stone in the other direction (from S11) it would be a standard desperate endgame ko... Black is putting more at risk, but he's behind to begin with, and it's a big ko for both sides, since if W follows through on his threat his group dies.

Even as it was played in the game, B would have gained points if he had ignored w264.

I don't see White dying

S11 would be double atari then White R11 atari, black captures with T12 and White lives with T13. So S11 would also start a ko that is high risk for Black with almost no gain.

jts · Post by **jts** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:49 pm

blade90 wrote:
jts wrote:
speedchase wrote:I am still wondering why your opponent started what is essentially a flower-picking ko over for his own group to live...
Well, with T12 it's pretty weird, but if he had ataried the stone in the other direction (from S11) it would be a standard desperate endgame ko... Black is putting more at risk, but he's behind to begin with, and it's a big ko for both sides, since if W follows through on his threat his group dies.

Even as it was played in the game, B would have gained points if he had ignored w264.
I don't see White dying
S11 would be double atari then White R11 atari, black captures with T12 and White lives with T13. So S11 would also start a ko that is high risk for Black with almost no gain.

Well, in your sequence W backs down. B gains points in sente. I'm counting the baseline as -7 if B fills in at T9 and W repairs at S11; if B offers a ko and W backs down, then the local score will be -6 if white gets the next move locally (5 pts territory, two black stones, one white stone) and -2 if black gets the next move locally (3 pts territory, one white stone). So if B can count on W backing down, he gains 3 pts in sente.

And if W doesn't back down, then he runs the risk of dying.

blade90 · Post by **blade90** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:03 pm

jts wrote:Well, in your sequence W backs down. B gains points in sente. I'm counting the baseline as -7 if B fills in at T9 and W repairs at S11; if B offers a ko and W backs down, then the local score will be -6 if white gets the next move locally (5 pts territory, two black stones, one white stone) and -2 if black gets the next move locally (3 pts territory, one white stone). So if B can count on W backing down, he gains 3 pts in sente.

And if W doesn't back down, then he runs the risk of dying.

I can't really follow you with your counting (I'm not good at such things) but the difference between my variation (if they finish the position normally), and simply Black connecting at T9, White fixing at S11 is that Black gains 5 points + sente.

But what I'm really saying is who will care about 3 or 5 points in sente with this board? It's all about winning a won game, Black can't even dream of White trying to fight this ko

lightvector · Post by **lightvector** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:36 pm

Move 30: You can kill by going here instead.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Black dies $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . , . . . . . O O 1 . | $$ . . . . O O O X X . . | $$ . . . . O X X . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Black dies 1 $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . , . . . . . O O W . | $$ . . . . O O O X X 2 5 | $$ . . . . O X X . . . 6 | $$ . . . . . 3 . 4 . 7 . | $$ ---------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black dies 1a $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . , . . . . . O O O . | $$ . . . . O O O X X X O | $$ . . . . O X X 4 . 1 X | $$ . . . . 2 O . X 3 W . | $$ ---------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black dies 1b $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . , . . . . . O O O . | $$ . . . . O O O X X X O | $$ . . . . O X X . 1 . X | $$ . . . . 2 O 3 X 4 W . | $$ ---------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Black dies 2 $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . , . . . . . O O W . | $$ . . . . O O O X X 7 . | $$ . . . . O X X 9 . 2 8 | $$ . . . . 5 3 . 4 6 . . | $$ ---------------------[/go]

illluck · Post by **illluck** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:41 pm

Does that kill unconditionally?

What if like this instead, is this ko or am I missing something?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Ko? $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . , . . . . . O O 1 . | $$ . . . . O O O X X 6 7 | $$ . . . . O X X . 4 3 8 | $$ . . . . . 5 . 2 . a 9 | $$ ---------------------[/go]

Edit:

And what about this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Alive? $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . , . . . . . O O 1 . | $$ . . . . O O O X X . . | $$ . . . . O X X . . 2 . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------[/go]

lightvector · Post by **lightvector** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:52 pm

Your second diagram is already covered. See the last diagram in the previous post, and also this additional variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . , . . . . . O O O . | $$ . . . . O O O X X . . | $$ . . . . O X X 7 . B 4 | $$ . . . . 3 1 . 2 6 5 . | $$ ---------------------[/go]

The first one should be killable like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . , . . . . . O O O . | $$ . . . . O O O X X . . | $$ . . . . O X X . 1 . . | $$ . . . . . . . B . . . | $$ ---------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . , . . . . . O O O . | $$ . . . . O O O X X 2 . | $$ . . . . O X X . O 3 . | $$ . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ ---------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . , . . . . . O O O . | $$ . . . . O O O X X 3 . | $$ . . . . O X X 4 O 2 5 | $$ . . . . . 7 . X . 6 . | $$ ---------------------[/go]

Edit:

Maybe Black has a small chance to resist this way, since white has no extension on the right side. I haven't read it. If black can get this hane in sente, it does affect the corner's life status. Yet even so, I don't think this can possibly end badly for white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . , . . . . . O O W 3 | $$ . . . . O O O X X 1 . | $$ . . . . O X X . . . . | $$ . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ ---------------------[/go]

jts · Post by **jts** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:04 pm

blade90 wrote:But what I'm really saying is who will care about 3 or 5 points in sente with this board? It's all about winning a won game, Black can't even dream of White trying to fight this ko

That's what desperate endgame kos are all about!

tchan001 · Post by **tchan001** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:23 pm

Thanks for all the replies. Especially the way to kill the corner. One move which I saw afterwards in self review which bugs me is if Black connects instead of captures in move 225.

illluck · Post by **illluck** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:41 pm

@lightvector:

Thanks a lot for the variations - obviously I need to do a lot more life and death

Life In 19x19

How to lose the corners and the center and still win big

How to lose the corners and the center and still win big

Re: How to lose the corners and the center and still win big

Re: How to lose the corners and the center and still win big

Re: How to lose the corners and the center and still win big

Re: How to lose the corners and the center and still win big

Re: How to lose the corners and the center and still win big

Re: How to lose the corners and the center and still win big

Re: How to lose the corners and the center and still win big

Re: How to lose the corners and the center and still win big

Re: How to lose the corners and the center and still win big

Re: How to lose the corners and the center and still win big

Re: How to lose the corners and the center and still win big

Re: How to lose the corners and the center and still win big