Looking for general advice - game #1

Dokuganryu · Post by **Dokuganryu** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:44 am

Greetings venerable forum members! As this is the my second post on the 19x19 forum I would like to once again say hello everyone.

I am looking for general advice about my playing, so I upload two latest game I played, they more less cover my current state (so for example first making a game losing move and than thinking

).

First one is a game I lost:

Second one I won, but could easily lose:
[admin]I moved this to its own thread. This promotes a more organized discussion. -JB [/admin]

Any tips are more than welcome:)

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:02 am

For the first game, m3 is way too late to invade. I might consider O3 or N3 even after H6.

It seemed like you let him get a very large hunk of territory, but felt OK since you had one of your own, but then he ended up breaking into yours.

To stop that beforehand, just stop him from getting a bit hunk of territory to begin with.

mitsun · Post by **mitsun** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:45 pm

A few comments on the first game:

Move 19) is the wrong direction. The problem with this move is that it attempts to make territory in a region where there is not much potential for further development. The top and right sides are much more open, so moves like K16 or K17 or Q10 or R10 would be good. W has quite a bit of thickness in the lower left, so an extension like O3 or N3 (but no closer) would be good to limit W potential there. Standard corner enclosures like O17 or R14 or R6 would also be good. Finally, in the upper left corner, and this is the important point, F17 is a better approach than C14. The feature to notice about this region is the low B stone at C7. This stone limits the territory either side can make along the left side. B should not try to develop in this direction; instead B should try to make W develop in this direction. Try laying out the result if B approaches at F17 and W answers the same way as the game. This result would be better for B than the actual game. W would have a stone at C14 with no prospect to make additional territory on the side, while B would have a stone at J17 with excellent future development prospects.

Move 29) and the next few moves were excellent for B. Were you happy with this result during the game? Up to move 40, B makes excellent thickness, while giving W relatively little territory. The problem now is how to use this thickness. Move 41 is quite small; if W played here, he could only make a few additional points of territory. Go back and lay out the board after move 40. Think of this as a full board problem in a book -- B to play and find the vital point.

Move 48) was the best move of the game. W found the vital point and got there first. Just picture how different the board would look if this stone was B instead of W!

Dokuganryu · Post by **Dokuganryu** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:19 pm

Thanks for the answers Kirby and Mitsun! Now I see that I tried to take "bigger part of the smaller deal" with my opening moves, I'll try to change that at once

Celebrir · Post by **Celebrir** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:34 am

Some fast thoughts about the game in a break:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Game. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This move is the wrong direction. Imagine this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c W is happy. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 2 . . . 6 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White is very satisfied with the shape at the top. However, if your first move attacks from the left and W tries the same:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c W isn't happy. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

W isn't that happy anymore. You have a strong group which helps to invade at a later. A stone at the third line with a strong group limits the value of this direction.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Game. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . 1 . O O O . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O . . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . O . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This move is a little shy. Look at this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Better than the game. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . . . 3 1 . . O O O . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O . . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . O . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now your pushing ahead which is always better. Even if you don't fight after the cut:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Easy going. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O 9 . . 7 . 8 1 2 . O O O . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . 6 4 3 X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O . . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . O . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Your result is better than whites. Besides W has a better continuation than the game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Better for W. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . . . 4 3 1 . O O O . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O . . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . O . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The cut doesn't work (It doesn't matter whether

is played at

or a:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Cut. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 O O 1 3 4 9 . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . . . O X X 2 O O O 8 | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X X a | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O . . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . O . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Looking for general advice - game #1

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