Here we have game 3 which Tromp resigned. He did again play nirensei as White. I agree with him till his move 28, but move 30 at R11 was a mistake for me (he should have played Q10). It led to black building up naturally a big center moyo that had too much influence in comparison with what White got with R11 and follow up moves. What do u think? IMO if you play nirensei you need to play fast and make sure you don't get behind too much in moyos and influence otherwise you will stand the difficult task to go against superior influence while at the same time your corners can be invaded, so that you can become quickly empty handed. Basically with nirensei you are saying: I want to spread out my stones and don't care for territory rather for influence resp. destroying influence of my opponent. Tromp never does that. He constantly ends up in Fuseki with Zen having superior influence while he has just very little territory (because of the 4-4 cornerstones) and inferior influence. Therefore he's forced to take risks Zen can take advantage of.
(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Chinese]SZ[19]KM[7.50]TM[5400]OT[25/600 Canadian]
PW[tromp]PB[Zen19N]DT[2012-01-16]PC[The KGS Go Server at
http://www.gokgs.com/]C[Zen19N [-\]: GTP Engine for Zen19N (black): Zen version 8.7
]RE[B+Resign]
;B[qk]BL[5368.378]C[Outsider [?\]: woah
emerald000 [3k?\]: huh
vliu12 [5k\]: NICE
ndkrempel [4d?\]: early chinese opening
Outsider [?\]: hello
oddalot [3k\]: haha, epic first move
]
;W[dd]WL[5384.113]C[blindgod [27k?\]: wow
Outsider [?\]: awesome first move
TerryTorus [3d\]: misclick?
xevad [-\]: bot is trolling
Ootakamoku [3d\]: in those who missed earlier, its 3rd game in a 5 game series, both have sofar won 1 game.
vliu12 [5k\]: i didnt know bots could misclick
epsilon3 [1k?\]: ok, but how to punish?
Ootakamoku [3d\]: zen totaly nuts, Ive bever seen zen open r9 or similar
MrEmDash [2k\]: LOL
]
;B[dp]BL[5338.999]C[h2s0 [1d\]: it plays moyo every move is ok
afk [-\]: why punish? this is a valid move
MrEmDash [2k\]: Is Zen confused?
ArrowLance [8k\]: Then doesn't even use an adjacent corner?=
epsilon3 [1k?\]: No,it's going for a modified great wall
kitsune01 [20k?\]: one day machines will take over the world and humans will win back there freedom with a game of go
ndkrempel [4d?\]: adjacent corners are miai
Capella [-\]: web page for the match:
http://dcook.org/gobet/epsilon3 [1k?\]: turns out that is a superior opening
MrEmDash [2k\]: hmmmm
vliu12 [5k\]: i must study this
pasky [-\]: epsilon3: just keep your calm and play the biggest point, the move's (lack of) value will reveal itself in time
MrEmDash [2k\]: that'd be interesting to see
Ootakamoku [3d\]: ya, 20 years fro now r9 is considered only valid opening
xevad [-\]: white knows that black wants the center
Egad [-\]: woah! this W looks like dwight from the office when he smiles!
polonius [2d?\]: i love zen
MrEmDash [2k\]: lol ootaka
xevad [-\]: he should be able to do something about it
UTDEspy [-\]: The hardest part about these Monte Carlo bots isn't that they're immediatelly strong, it's that their moves are so far from convention it can be hard to deal with
afk [-\]: white q16, black q3 reverts to a common fuseki
MrEmDash [2k\]: oh yeah, it's MCTS
gghideki [3k?\]: (? ?) this first move of Zen, I never see before
]
;W[pd]WL[5305.866]C[MrEmDash [2k\]: afk, that is true
xevad [-\]: I think I saw Robert Jasiek play it once
pasky [-\]: gghideki: Really? Pachi plays like this all the time.
kitsune01 [20k?\]: r 9 lol
]
;B[pq]BL[5304.03]C[GrnLantern [7k\]: dont lol to r9
afk [-\]: i wouldn´t use jasiek as a reference
MrEmDash [2k\]: i now realize, it was the perfect move
PaperTiger [2k\]: I'm hosting a clone game of tromp vs Zen with moderated kibitz, all our welcome. Dans will be granted kibitz by default, others ask
qQQp [-\]: and now everything looks normal. It wasn't really bad
pasky [-\]: now it looks like just a move order issue
Cephei [2k\]: i wonder if zenauthor is suprised by r9
alienist [6k\]: now more normal
pasky [-\]: i've seen r9 in similar board position in some recent korean games
xevad [1d?\]: do I count?
kalin1 [11k\]: O_o
kalin1 [11k\]: r9....
MrEmDash [2k\]: lol xevad
MrEmDash [2k\]: kalin, it was the perfect move
kitsune01 [20k?\]: now its normal but wht if white took the corner
Strategy [-\]: i was half expecting something weird like p3 or something lol
kalin1 [11k\]: divine move :O
xevad [-\]: black's opening looks pretty good so far
xevad [-\]: the order was just different
kitsune01 [20k?\]: if w took q3 or q4 instead what do u think would have happend
xevad [-\]: white has a chance to take advantage of it though
Egad [-\]: why is this game played with such long time settings?
Tetriste [1d\]: r9 is ok, its probing to know what corner move fits best
armada [5d\]: AWW yeah, let's go
xevad [-\]: better for long time setting
xevad [-\]: Zen has an unfair advantage in blitz
vliu12 [5k\]: mini chinese with different order D:
afk [-\]: r13 or k3
Egad [-\]: well, 90 minutes main time and B opens with r9
Egad [-\]: seems weird
MrEmDash [2k\]: lol
ToDie [2d\]: i´d play k3
polonius [2d?\]: this is shin shin fuseki
MrEmDash [2k\]: hm, tromp thinking hard about this
GrnLantern [7k\]: l3
Tetriste [1d\]: himountain used to open with j10 followed by m9...
armada [5d\]: yeah don't let zen play moyo
kitsune01 [20k?\]: d10 is where i would play
Strategy [-\]: eh... i dont think it was often
]
;W[mp]WL[5085.355]C[Strategy [-\]: that himountain did that lol
yasi [1d\]: are these two players really bot?
xevad [-\]: if Zen gets good influence you can pretty much say game (unless ko)
afk [-\]: unusual
yasi [1d\]: or they are pretending to be robot?
afk [-\]: q5 or p4?
xevad [-\]: white is human, black is a bot
RoundTuit [2k\]: only one of them is a bot
GrnLantern [7k\]: its cold in Holland but they are no bots
alienist [6k\]: after moyo loss last night
]
;B[po]BL[5266.114]C[GrnLantern [7k\]: Tromp is a dutch player
armada [5d\]: f3
yasi [1d\]: white is human?
AgntCooper [3k\]: zen is japanese pro?
xevad [-\]: k4 too slow?
afk [-\]: f3 k4 and white got nothing
Egad [-\]: yes, thats why he has the pic of a human
vliu12 [5k\]: of course
kitsune01 [20k?\]: zens a bot
afk [-\]: white must play around k3
alienist [6k\]: now b looks normal
GrnLantern [7k\]: zen is an advanced version of pacman
]
;W[fq]WL[5035.742]C[yasi [1d\]: so it is a unfair game
GrnLantern [7k\]: yasi, is fair game, enjoy !
afk [-\]: pincer!
polonius [2d?\]: zen is a religion
xevad [-\]: with this time setting I think the game is fair
dragonx [13k?\]: Who won match 1&2
]
;B[cn]BL[5232.287]C[Ritm [6k\]: at what level is this bot playing?
kitsune01 [20k?\]: match oe tromp
Egad [-\]: 4d
GrnLantern [7k\]: see the links on the info
kitsune01 [20k?\]: one*
kitsune01 [20k?\]: other one bot
xevad [-\]: 4d in slow games, 5d-ish in blitz
armada [5d\]: that's what we're hre to find out, Ritm
alienist [6k\]: they are 1 and 1
dragonx [13k?\]: cool
AgntCooper [3k\]: does the robot have arms?
GrnLantern [7k\]: oh no links, see the room message
Tetriste [1d\]: zen19s is 5d tho
xevad [-\]: Tetriste only in blitz
yasi [1d\]: how strong is tromp?
Tetriste [1d\]: xevad
gghideki [3k?\]:
http://www.dcook.org/gobet/rubicon [2d\]: tromp is 2d EGF, going on 3d
Tetriste [1d\]: zen19s, s stands for slow
rubicon [2d\]: which is close to 3/4d kgs
GrnLantern [7k\]: 3-4dan kgs
Tetriste [1d\]: if you look at zen19s games they're slow too
yasi [1d\]: 3/4d kgs is not very strong
]
;W[iq]WL[4908.223]C[rubicon [2d\]: its pretty strong
gghideki [3k?\]: Zen19S runs on a cluster but Zen19N runs on a pc
pasky [-\]: he is strong enough to play the program
]
;B[eg]BL[5206.165]C[afk [-\]: lol
Tetriste [1d\]: oh thats possible
Tetriste [1d\]: I didn't know that
afk [-\]: i just wanted to say the next move will be random
shy [-\]: go human />
rubicon [2d\]: hideki, is it running on different settings?
yasi [1d\]: oh mty
GrnLantern [7k\]: 7th line is not random
ArrowLance [8k\]: Doesn't c14 make that move sort of float?
yasi [1d\]: what is E13?
]
;W[fd]WL[4870.951]C[xevad [-\]: zen19s is 5d because of rank drift
aphelionx [?\]: kgs 3d is about 1d wbaduk or so?
gghideki [3k?\]: rubicon, what setting?
GrnLantern [7k\]: i won 2 games with 7-7 opening
thanush [3d\]: other way around
rubicon [2d\]: what i mean is, zen seems to be playing different than Zen19S
Starstorm [4d\]: go mankind!
armada [5d\]: e13?
Tetriste [1d\]: wbaduk and tygem dans arent so strong
]
;B[eq]BL[5161.69]C[Tetriste [1d\]: kyus are tho
]
;W[fp]WL[4857.395]C[xevad [-\]: kyus are too strong...
rubicon [2d\]: my friend is 4d kgs and 7d wbaduk, lol
afk [-\]: e3 feels a bit too early. now white is a lot stronger
costco [2k\]: e13 seems exeptionaly unusual for this part of the game
fluidistic [7k\]: ??? what was zen's first move.....!
gghideki [3k?\]: The version is different (now 8.7) but, I guess, just the hardware
ArrowLance [8k\]: r9 fluid
Tetriste [1d\]: yup, while 3k kgs would be about 5k wbaduk I think
aphelionx [?\]: wbaduk 7d seems stronger to me than 7d igs or kgs...
fluidistic [7k\]: I mean... first time I see zen doing that
]
;B[cg]BL[5122.892]C[fluidistic [7k\]: zen 99% of the time took hoshi
fluidistic [7k\]: but never did R9 before
Slogger [1k\]: so tromp lost the bet right ?
fluidistic [7k\]: weird start
Slogger [1k\]: he lost yesterday
vliu12 [5k\]: this is weird
xevad [-\]: tromp hasn't lost the bet yet
Slogger [1k\]: why that ?
rubicon [2d\]: tromp won the first bet, we will see if he wins this time too
GrnLantern [7k\]: he won
xevad [-\]: score is 1 -1
Tetriste [1d\]: gotta say that kgs is highly competitive though, while wbaduk and tygem is more just for fun
rubicon [2d\]: although there is no money involved this time, is there, hideki??
WackyFuse [6k\]: its a 5 game bet
Cephei [2k\]: true fluidistic, i've only seen 4-4by zen
Slogger [1k\]: the bet was to be undefeated in 10 games right ?
fluidistic [7k\]: there is no money
Tetriste [1d\]: thats why you'll see a lot of weird moves on korean servers
armada [5d\]: tromp won the actual bet 1 year ago against many faces, 4-0. this is a new match best of 5 against zen
afk [-\]: without e3 black had h4 h3 f4 to attack a white invasion
wizigo [2k\]: for glory only
WackyFuse [6k\]: its only 1-1
xevad [-\]: no money this time
fluidistic [7k\]: I think zen has been tweaked especially for this match. in a good way I hope
wizigo [2k\]: the human died miserably last night :/
Slogger [1k\]: who organize this by the way ?
fluidistic [7k\]: well I'm rooting for this bot
Slogger [1k\]: why is it at the top of the games list ?
fluidistic [7k\]: I spectate zen since July of 2011
]
;W[en]WL[4745.245]C[Ritm [6k\]: I think zenauthor challenged tromp
kitsune01 [20k?\]: hmm outside influence needs to be played by w
Drack [14k\]: I hope tromp wins
Starstorm [4d\]: E6 seems too passive...
dragonx [13k?\]: Is there any way to reveiw the game from yesterday
fluidistic [7k\]: yes dragon
fluidistic [7k\]: look into the last games of zen19N
afk [-\]: e6 is the keypoint for both moyos
]
;B[mn]BL[5083.617]C[kitsune01 [20k?\]: or tromp
Slogger [1k\]: still i mean they r 4d they r strong but nothing compare to 6d games for example...
Starstorm [4d\]: B doesnt have a moyo on the bottom 0.o
Starstorm [4d\]: 9 mean W
xevad [-\]: Zen is really good at taking the center
fluidistic [7k\]: Slogger... zen won vs 6d's without handicap
wizigo [2k\]: the nicest thing here is the time setting
fluidistic [7k\]: zen has positive score aganst higher players
Starstorm [4d\]: zen won blitz against 6dan very different
kitsune01 [20k?\]: yes w needs to be more agressive
yasi [1d\]: wow
zife [-\]: I hope he's saving his tromp cards for the later games
xevad [-\]: fluidistic Zen has an advantage in blitz games
fluidistic [7k\]: zen won vs zyoda like 6 times and lost 3 (including all his accounts)
Slogger [1k\]: i ate some fishes it didn't make me a dolphin fluidistic
fluidistic [7k\]: yes xevad
Tetriste [1d\]: I think its more like : Zen often takes the center because the others are not interested in it early in the game
kitsune01 [20k?\]: ha tromp card'
wizigo [2k\]: E6 is good, better than N6 for w
xevad [-\]: Zen also won against cjheaven but that is because of the edge it has in blitz games
zife [-\]: I'd be prouder if it wasn't such a bad pun
Starstorm [4d\]: wel W N6 wasnt a good move either
RemiCoulom [4k\]: Automatic live analysis by Crazy Stone (updated every 2 minutes, no need to reload like crazy):
http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/~coulom/CrazyStone/yasi [1d\]: N6 is unclear move
yasi [1d\]: as E13
wizigo [2k\]: but the bot still chose it
WackyFuse [6k\]: cool, thanks remi
shy [-\]: n6 is a shape
Leibnix [5k\]: tx remi, awesome
wizigo [2k\]: it's a negative move for b
shy [-\]: i could not say its a bad move
Starstorm [4d\]: remi can you explain what the numbers are?
xevad [1d?\]: I like n6
shy [-\]: its just unusual
RemiCoulom [4k\]: OK.
RemiCoulom [4k\]: I quickly hacked this system today.
RemiCoulom [4k\]: Very experimental.
]
;W[qf]WL[4549.646]C[MrEmDash [2k\]: cool.
wizigo [2k\]: we don't see a big b moyo so it's only to tackle w's
kitsune01 [20k?\]: i think as stands black is doing okay
RemiCoulom [4k\]: In the move list, you have move number, move, search effort, and score.
shy [-\]: w c7 is a major pita isnt it
RemiCoulom [4k\]: The white/black bar indicates winning probability.
xevad [-\]: what about win percentage?
xevad [-\]: oh
shy [-\]: d7 is very big
]
;B[dl]BL[5039.651]C[wizigo [2k\]: yes
RemiCoulom [4k\]: score is between -1 and 1.
fluidistic [7k\]: ah ok!
RemiCoulom [4k\]: so, close to zero means 50%
fluidistic [7k\]: that makes sense... thx Rémi
uurtamo [-\]: so it's for b right now?
fluidistic [7k\]: yes
fluidistic [7k\]: by 4% it seems
uurtamo [-\]: cool, thanks for putting it up.
MicMac [1d\]: and minus score say black is ahead?
fluidistic [7k\]: ye
MrEmDash [2k\]: what is this?
MrEmDash [2k\]: o_O
Ritm [6k\]: nice
wizigo [2k\]: play top
MrEmDash [2k\]: what are we talking about?
fluidistic [7k\]: well I think so
RemiCoulom [4k\]: +1 means B wins.
fluidistic [7k\]: oh
Leibnix [5k\]: remi, could you please add some piano sounds when we click the bars that looks like a keyboard?
RemiCoulom [4k\]: You get histogram by clicking on the move name.
wizigo [2k\]: K17 is very big
shy [-\]: g13
MicMac [1d\]: oh ok thanks remi
Nanno [4d?\]: Zen would be ALOT stronger on a bigger board, say 38x38 right?
MitaniKun [4k\]: P17
MrEmDash [2k\]: i dont understand
MrEmDash [2k\]: remi, what is this?
uurtamo [-\]: nanno, it's not clear.
ToDie [2d\]: so w is slightly ahead according to crazystone
xevad [-\]: Nanno not sure
rubicon [2d\]: no, Nanno
uurtamo [-\]: actually, nanno, it's exactly the opposite.
costco [2k\]: i think they get stronger on small boards
rubicon [2d\]: he would be weaker
fluidistic [7k\]: yes Todie
Tetriste [1d\]: I wonder
polonius [2d?\]: zen is pro level on 9x9
aphelionx [?\]: where is crazygo analysos site again?
costco [2k\]: less stuff to calculate
ToDie [2d\]: ok
WackyFuse [6k\]: Nanno, the opposite
Nanno [4d?\]: well 9x9 is easy
]
;W[jc]WL[4413.299]C[HaneGaran: zen is bot?
rubicon [2d\]: although, weather a human is stronger or weaker on 38x38 is up for discussion
ifold [?\]: easy ?
delphideo [21k\]: YEs
jcgo [10k\]: yes
kneh [7k\]:
http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/~coulom/CrazyStone/uurtamo [-\]: nanno, 9x9 is not quite easy.
Leibnix [5k\]: I think you'r find it quite hard to write a good 9x9 bot
uurtamo [-\]: it's simply easier than 19x19.
shy [-\]: its just a different kind of difficult xD
Nanno [4d?\]: uurtamo: for bots it is
HaneGaran: k I thought so, just doublechecking
xevad [-\]: Is it safe to assume that the Computer Go people are rooting for Zen?
shy [-\]: yeah thats true
wizigo [2k\]: w top moyo is nice
uurtamo [-\]: xevad: no.
pasky [-\]: (** Note that if you prefer kibitz more focused on the game, I recommend PaperTiger's demo with moderated dan comments!)
]
;B[hf]BL[4991.105]C[rubicon [2d\]: :O
afk [-\]: Remi, you are wrong. i have to refresh to see new moves ..
yasi [1d\]: another one!
WackyFuse [6k\]: not me, i'm rooting for tromp
Tetriste [1d\]: I don't like h14
uurtamo [-\]: i am rooting for w big time.
armada [5d\]: feels like w should have attacked the left before b added d8
WackyFuse [6k\]: afk, two minutes refresh
fluidistic [7k\]: me too afk
shy [-\]: F8 certainly
fluidistic [7k\]: we need to refresh to see moves
MrEmDash [2k\]: oh wow
xevad [-\]: okay that is nice to hear =)
aphelionx [?\]: will this crazystone analysosn be available offline aftergamr?
Slogger [1k\]: no
uurtamo [-\]: i have lots of respect for what he's willing to do here.
Leibnix [5k\]: yes, afk, but no need to refresh more often than a couple of minutes
yasi [1d\]: this is cool move
kitsune01 [20k?\]: b trying for the center
fluidistic [7k\]: so far crazystone thinks w very slightly ahead
xevad [-\]: Crazystone is crazy
wizigo [2k\]: this looks nice
RemiCoulom [4k\]: Yes, you have to refresh. But no need to refresh like crazy. New data comes every 2 minutes. It is running on my laptop, so it won't find complicated moves. Have to sleep now. I hope it will run smoothly.
Tetriste [1d\]: k15?
WackyFuse [6k\]: thanks remi
wizigo [2k\]: but b moyo is still very open
fluidistic [7k\]: ok, thank you very much Rémi
fluidistic [7k\]: good night
xevad [-\]: if white's next move is worth at least 15 points then yes white is ahead
wizigo [2k\]: why shouldn't w just cash in with H16
fluidistic [7k\]: J6?
xevad [-\]: h16 wouldn't be enough, white would fall behind
kitsune01 [20k?\]: yes b moyo is open but to take advatege requires agressive play
Leibnix [5k\]: then g8 or something
fluidistic [7k\]: what about J6?
MitaniKun [4k\]: whats the website to view the analysis?
Tetriste [1d\]: k15 and w construct upper right and offers opportunity to do so while reducing black later
fluidistic [7k\]:
http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/~coulom/CrazyStone/uurtamo [-\]: because b is scarily good at taking the center, wizigo.
fluidistic [7k\]: crazystone is about 5d
elephant [2d?\]: Not scarily good
fluidistic [7k\]: in blitz
wizigo [2k\]: if allow b H17, the point of K17 is not clear
uurtamo [-\]: sorry, scarily aggressive.
elephant [2d?\]: You could take the centre just as well if you played moves that look silly
aphelionx [?\]: k10 bad?
fluidistic [7k\]: here I'd J6
uurtamo [-\]: ha ha ha. nice one, elephant.
fluidistic [7k\]: or J7
kitsune01 [20k?\]: k14
maenad [3k\]: KGS score estimate is B + 158.5
kitsune01 [20k?\]: maybe
elephant [2d?\]: Well, it's true
jcgo [10k\]: lolz
uurtamo [-\]: "sum" seems to have proven that somehow over the last few years.
elephant [2d?\]: And if you think it makes the centre good for black, it has the interesting implication that best play in response to silly moves is not the obvious normal moves
xevad [-\]: why isn't sum watching this game?
ToDie [2d\]: b h17 would be very painful
]
;W[fl]WL[4108.476]C[ToDie [2d\]: so i´d play h16
uurtamo [-\]: this time is not the best for everyone. i believe that he is german, and it is 2am there right now.
HaneGaran: why's that?
fluidistic [7k\]: wow
xevad [-\]: but white h17 won't help white win
Leibnix [5k\]: that's the move I thought of!
fluidistic [7k\]: crazystone predicted this move
Tetriste [1d\]: I liked k15 a lot :'(
yasi [1d\]: logical move
fluidistic [7k\]: that's cs's move too
fluidistic [7k\]: lol nice
fluidistic [7k\]: human=bot
uurtamo [-\]: elephant, i love your analysis, but i still get crushed by pretending like joseki doesn't exist.
jcgo [10k\]: i wouldnt say that fluid
Tetriste [1d\]: if b answers k15 with f8, then w k13 and makes his own huge moyo
fluidistic [7k\]: well for that move yes
]
;B[hd]BL[4942.707]C[WackyFuse [6k\]: uurtamo, sum= robert Jasiek. he is indeed german
jcgo [10k\]: yeah for thaat
armada [5d\]: this is a weird timid game. so far black and white stones make contact once
wizigo [2k\]: ??
kitsune01 [20k?\]: h17
elephant [2d?\]: uurtamo: It isn't about joseki, it's about good moves
elephant [2d?\]: You can't just 'pretend joseki don't exist' because joseki are good moves by nature
]
;W[hc]WL[4080.238]C[ToDie [2d\]: this looks like a thank you move
megabeest [2k\]: contact!
Tetriste [1d\]: also k15, although it didnt fix all the aji, still helps against h17
kitsune01 [20k?\]: lol
fluidistic [7k\]: once the page refresh i can tell u what cs thinks
HaneGaran: woop
elephant [2d?\]: If you do your best to avoid them, that's perilously close to deliberately playing bad moves
ToDie [2d\]: now w can be happy
kitsune01 [20k?\]: f17
elephant [2d?\]: But there's also a class of non-joseki move that makes the joseki moves bad
xevad [-\]: game is still pretty tough for white
]
;B[jd]BL[4916.667]C[elephant [2d?\]: And it's a fine line to walk between them
HaneGaran: woop
Slogger [1k\]: that's bad for b...
yasi [1d\]: b is helping w?
wizigo [2k\]: why is b making inferior invasion ?
fluidistic [7k\]: nah
uurtamo [-\]: elephant, perhaps i should say that i have deliberately avoided studying joseki because it reminds me of the super tedious opening memorization that i avoided at age 13 in chess.
fluidistic [7k\]: building moyo
kitsune01 [20k?\]: l16 for han
xevad [-\]: black isn't invading he is fortifying
polonius [2d?\]: zen doesn't invade, it reduces and builds moyos
uurtamo [-\]: but maybe i'm old enough now to relax and give it a try.
elephant [2d?\]: uurtamo: I always found it most interesting to look at the joseki moves, but not to study them
Slogger [1k\]: reallly it never invades ?
uurtamo [-\]: okay, thanks.
elephant [2d?\]: Then in a game you can play them without really knowing why they are joseki...and because it's a game, you have incentive to read properly
]
;W[id]WL[4002.552]C[polonius [2d?\]: it doesn't like to invade
elephant [2d?\]: So you get the advantage of learning by reading, and also the advantage of learning about common joseki moves
wizigo [2k\]: too bad you didn't relax at age 13 while you had to ability to learn with ease... =p
kitsune01 [20k?\]: cut at j17
gentoo [-\]: the bot has to be peaceful. asimov's 3 laws, naturally
]
;B[ie]BL[4895.989]C[fluidistic [7k\]: hmmm....
]
;W[ic]WL[3999.489]C[fluidistic [7k\]: page is frozen since move 20
kitsune01 [20k?\]: nvm
MitaniKun [4k\]: was it programmed to not invade, or dide it figure out on its own?
uurtamo [-\]: wizigo, i went to math camp instead and later became a mathematician.
Leibnix [5k\]: and still no piano sounds
fluidistic [7k\]: it does invade...
xevad [-\]: the bot is center oriented
fluidistic [7k\]: zen does invade when he needs
HaneGaran: lol gentoo
wizigo [2k\]: oh i guess it turned out ok then =)
]
;B[kd]BL[4855.663]C[billywoods [8k\]: how exciting
uurtamo [-\]: pretty big w top side.
darrencook [?\]: Programming an MCTS bot to not invade would be really hard
LastAngel [?\]: may i ask you, what is so special at tromp, that he gets this attetion to his game against zen?
elephant [2d?\]: 'abstract physicist' is a better title than 'mathematician'
uurtamo [-\]: i guess m17 would be natural.
WackyFuse [6k\]: last angel, the bet
polonius [2d?\]: as i understand, zen is too pessimistic about invasions so it usually prefers to reduce
GrnLantern [7k\]: Tromp is cute, cant you see?
uurtamo [-\]: lastangel: his reputation is on the line.
]
;W[qi]WL[3959.352]C[darrencook [?\]: @LastAngel, see
http://dcook.org/gobet/elephant [2d?\]: LastAngel: A year or so ago was the culmination of a $1000 bet between him and someone else on whether he could beat a computer
elephant [2d?\]: This is residual fame
polonius [2d?\]: it's also pessimistic about opponent's invasions, which is why it likes moyos so much
GrnLantern [7k\]: you get yourself a happy smile like that and you'll get attention too
uurtamo [-\]: few people would make that challenge at his level.
MitaniKun [4k\]: P10
elephant [2d?\]: The challenge was made 11 years ago
xevad [-\]: okay now I believe white is ahead
peteg [?\]: White has gained 100 pts according to score guestimator... but still 80 behind
]
;B[pj]BL[4815.84]C[uurtamo [-\]: moreover, he studies go quite seriously.
elephant [2d?\]: On whether, in 10 years, he could still beat bots
uurtamo [-\]: it was a fantastic bet.
LastAngel [?\]: ok, thx
elephant [2d?\]: So it wasn't like he knew how good they were at the time
elephant [2d?\]: Or would be
uurtamo [-\]: science fiction bet.
GrnLantern [7k\]: look at Tromps, page on sensei and his website
]
;W[pi]WL[3924.784]C[xevad [-\]: he won the first bet without any issues
Slogger [1k\]: link please
GrnLantern [7k\]: you'll see Tromp is a seios researcher
Slogger [1k\]: or google it for me
fluidistic [7k\]: crazystone favors w since the very first move still
GrnLantern [7k\]: seious
mmueller [?\]: Hi
xevad [-\]: 4 wins to 0
GrnLantern [7k\]: sorry, i wont try to type anymore
]
;B[oi]BL[4786.738]C[polonius [2d?\]: he also invented the really pretty tromp-taylor rules
delphideo [21k\]: There's also info on gogameguru.
wizigo [2k\]: w game is not bad
yasi [1d\]: the center is very hard to materialize
xevad [-\]: this isn't enough for black
uurtamo [-\]: f8 looks great now.
blackliist: whos ahead right now?
xevad [-\]: still sente though
Slogger [1k\]: if b wanted the center it would have played Q13 instead of Q10
xevad [-\]: white is ahead
epsilon3 [1k?\]: but this time b also has corner and side territory, so doesn't need the whole center
fluidistic [7k\]: sadly yes
uurtamo [-\]: imagine the board without f8.
xevad [-\]: I think by maybe 8-ish points
blackliist: ok thanks
Strategy [-\]: too soon to tell imo
Strategy [-\]: lol
jcgo [10k\]: w/o f8 it would be bad for white
wizigo [2k\]: b has close to nothing
GrnLantern [7k\]: white should win this game
fluidistic [7k\]: too early to say
uurtamo [-\]: jcgo: exactly.
xevad [-\]: white has to respond to this though
polonius [2d?\]: both players have screwed up before and can screw up again
fluidistic [7k\]: agreed with polonius 100%
billywoods [8k\]: now all tromp needs is a monkey jump
ToDie [2d\]: imagine the board without q10
uurtamo [-\]: polonius, that's hilarious, since it's been exactly two games.
GrnLantern [7k\]: i dont know the future but I like white position this time
GrnLantern [7k\]: B center is wide open
polonius [2d?\]: zen screwed up the first one and tromp screwed up the second one, yes
kitsune01 [20k?\]: mm if white does not gp for the center and build up it could be a win for black\\\\
elephant [2d?\]: There is still much that could happen
xevad [-\]: white can't let black have a move like O12, that is all I know
uurtamo [-\]: todie: thanks.
elephant [2d?\]: C17 and R17 remain open
GrnLantern [7k\]: n8
xevad [-\]: err p12 I mean
ToDie [2d\]: just joking
]
;W[oh]WL[3719.588]C[uurtamo [-\]: i know.
uurtamo [-\]:
elephant [2d?\]: That's not to say that it's good for black, but that there are plenty of opportunities for points to change hand
wizigo [2k\]: clever move like M8 will erase most of it
elephant [2d?\]: s
xevad [-\]: too big
fluidistic [7k\]: damn i can't see what cs think as best move in
http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/~coulom/CrazyStone/jcgo [10k\]: i think n6 has alot of potential
fluidistic [7k\]: i get error
]
;B[nh]BL[4748.921]C[fluidistic [7k\]: for the last moves
MitaniKun [4k\]: imagine the board without D4
yasi [1d\]: black is obssesed with center
tromp [-\]: zen won connect-4
uurtamo [-\]: wow, imagine a human doing this this early.
GrnLantern [7k\]: n8
Imagingo [17k\]: zen loooves the center
jcgo [10k\]: haha
fluidistic [7k\]: who doesn't love the zenter?
wizigo [2k\]: why commit at all with P12
uurtamo [-\]: looks so desperate by b.
xevad [-\]: I think I would P10 here but I'm sure it is a bad move
Imagingo [17k\]: it's more than love, zen seems to have perverse lust for the center. All three games...
ajahuang [6d\]: hi all
uurtamo [-\]: hello, aja!
fluidistic [7k\]: hi ajahuang
nay4ok [1k?\]: why is it a top game?
ToDie [2d\]: how to follow up after p10 o11 ?
fluidistic [7k\]: if you want to see what cs thinnks,
http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/~coulom/CrazyStone/fluidistic [7k\]: crazystone
uurtamo [-\]: nay4ok because it is to determine whether robots are our new masters.
xevad [-\]: nay4ok because it is go history
nay4ok [1k?\]: what do you mean?
ajahuang [6d\]: Black seems ahead, IMO
polonius [2d?\]: it's only history if zen wins
WWSD [1d\]: how good is tromp?
WWSD [1d\]: like usual ranking
uurtamo [-\]: nay4ok, black is a machine.
jcgo [10k\]: the best go computer is going to be made by SkyNet
nay4ok [1k?\]: who's white?
xevad [-\]: ajahuang I'm too weak to make such a statement but I do believe white has the upper hand
ajahuang [6d\]: C17, L3 are both big
GrnLantern [7k\]: Tromp is 3-4 dan kgs
yasi [1d\]: N14
yasi [1d\]: tengen
fluidistic [7k\]: cs thinks w is ahead
HaneGaran: Tromp is WHite
ajahuang [6d\]: White has C7
kitsune01 [20k?\]: w could win if he did something with his left corner
xevad [-\]: I agree with CS now
uurtamo [-\]: actually, now that i think of it, black could really use a tron-like icon/avatar.
billywoods [8k\]: heh
fluidistic [7k\]: cs likes O11 here
polonius [2d?\]: tromp will cut because that's what humans do
xevad [-\]: O11 seems natural but...
polonius [2d?\]: humans are aggressive and mean :s
wizigo [2k\]: neither cut feels that natural
fluidistic [7k\]: I can keep up with cs's evaluation only when players don't play for 2 minutes approximately.
xevad [-\]: bots are cold and uncaring :s
jcgo [10k\]: i think this position is just awkward
MitaniKun [4k\]: O11
yasi [1d\]: BUT BOT IS STUPID
wizigo [2k\]: what was so bad about letting b P12 anyway ?
kitsune01 [20k?\]: r10 ?
polonius [2d?\]: the bot would tenuki
uurtamo [-\]: everything looks so small to me. i look forward to being educated on this move.
]
;W[ni]WL[3428.176]C[darrencook [?\]: @polonius John does well because it keeps the game quiet. So he may choose not to cut...
xevad [-\]: wizigo it would be too big
HaneGaran: hmm
yasi [1d\]: ok. start the fighting
billywoods [8k\]: i too am waiting to be educated
fluidistic [7k\]: another bot's move lol
]
;B[oj]BL[4720.494]C[ToDie [2d\]: i think p10 p13 will come
]
;W[og]WL[3425.226]C[xevad [-\]: allowing black to have P12 would make it difficult to see who has the upper hand
PaperTiger [2k\]: 6d,5d kibitz is happening now in the moderated clone game
MitaniKun [4k\]: where?
Leibnix [5k\]: that must be boring
nay4ok [1k?\]: sorry I was afk... who is w again?
]
;B[hk]BL[4668.693]C[PaperTiger [2k\]: in my games list
jcgo [10k\]: there is 231 observers
yasi [1d\]: wow
Imagingo [17k\]: Black attack
billywoods [8k\]: that's a nice move
billywoods [8k\]: if odd
yasi [1d\]: another big move
kitsune01 [20k?\]: aga news got the word out
yasi [1d\]: b has lots of imagination
HaneGaran: Tromp is WHite
yasi [1d\]: but
WackyFuse [6k\]: nay4ok: John Tromp, check gogameguru.com/man-machine-showdown-board-game-go/
wizigo [2k\]: it seems w lost sente over vague aji
wizigo [2k\]: H9 is a clever move
LEIBNIZ [2k\]: is this an ear-reddening move?
jcgo [10k\]: what was the origiinal time at?
kitsune01 [20k?\]: ask tromp lol
Imagingo [17k\]: I think zen likes the center because it plays better moves there. The monkey jump/gorilla stampede last night was a good example of zen doing weird stuff on the sides
aphelionx [?\]: just a reductionto me
skjdhkshk: Zen didn't care by that point. It had won.
Naphthalin [9k\]: hey guys
Leibnix [5k\]: maybe it actually has some evaluation rule that says edges are less interesting
xevad [-\]: how to deal with such multipurpose moves =/
jcgo [10k\]: Zen has feelings?
GrnLantern [7k\]: with another multipurpose move
Leibnix [5k\]: with your own multi purpose move
GrnLantern [7k\]: n8 looks good
Leibnix [5k\]: darnh
xevad [-\]: easier to say it than do it
Imagingo [17k\]: whether or not it's something purposefully put in or not, it makes for very interesting play
billywoods [8k\]: n8 looks stranded :S
HaneGaran: n8 for white?
wizigo [2k\]: too deep :/
wizigo [2k\]: w need to start a fight though
xevad [-\]: I think white needs to play small here
HaneGaran: :p
kitsune01 [20k?\]: k6?
gentoo [-\]: n4 looking lonely
Naphthalin [9k\]: tromp needs more time than zen
nay4ok [1k?\]: so he's pro? white
]
;W[fj]WL[3153.234]C[billywoods [8k\]: white is an amateur
Imagingo [17k\]: Tromp spends his time well, really
Leibnix [5k\]: says 2d on his home page
nay4ok [1k?\]: but uit sais shodan on the website
]
;B[ko]BL[4633.112]C[billywoods [8k\]: ack
HaneGaran: ha
MrEmDash [3k\]: o_O
xevad [-\]: like I said... easier to say it than do it
kitsune01 [20k?\]: b saw a key point
xevad [-\]: I still believe white can win the game though
nay4ok [1k?\]: robots dont see
aphelionx [?\]: m6?
yasi [1d\]: center has holes
yasi [1d\]: not easy to materialize
kitsune01 [20k?\]: expression analyzed we
MitaniKun [4k\]: L3
Imagingo [17k\]: Zen percieves the shape of the board and its stones, it's all it needs
nay4ok [1k?\]: which out if 10 this game is?
Imagingo [17k\]: 3rd
maenad [3k\]: L7
WackyFuse [6k\]: game 3
yasi [1d\]: let's see what b has moved, E13/N6/H14/H9/P11
kitsune01 [20k?\]: its out of 5
aphelionx [?\]: of 7
kitsune01 [20k?\]: and its the 3rd
nay4ok [1k?\]: whats the score?
]
;W[kq]WL[3016.156]C[yasi [1d\]: these move are now working together
Leibnix [5k\]: can't w play around k12 and then run either left or right?
aphelionx [?\]: n12?
epsilon3 [1k?\]: N12
GrnLantern [7k\]: running is not the way to win battles
xevad [-\]: probably
Leibnix [5k\]:
]
;B[gd]BL[4585.272]
;W[gc]WL[3010.629]C[GrnLantern [7k\]: i think approach to reduce is more efficient
GrnLantern [7k\]: or try deep invasion directly
epsilon3 [1k?\]: kikashi for time, now that's a strong player
billywoods [8k\]: approach from where? black is looking pretty good here
fluidistic [7k\]: for the first time of the whole game, cs thinks b is head
fluidistic [7k\]: ahead
Leibnix [5k\]: the schytians won battles by running away
ajahuang [6d\]: B16 is pretty big
kitsune01 [20k?\]: h10 maybe
GrnLantern [7k\]: im too weak to see the proper place to reduce
]
;B[kh]BL[4534.43]C[yasi [1d\]: another very intersting move
GrnLantern [7k\]: but there are holes
veber [3k\]: k9
fluidistic [7k\]: turns center into a solid rock
xevad [-\]: *makes note of L12
ToDie [2d\]: looks misplaced to me
ajahuang [6d\]: this move is like a misclick :Q
kitsune01 [20k?\]: L12 hmm
ArrowLance [8k\]: Looks like this is blacks game to me now
wizigo [2k\]: not bad for w
epsilon3 [1k?\]: I don't like L12 either
yasi [1d\]: K7 is easy point to invade
xevad [-\]: it is a defensive move
billywoods [8k\]: am i alone in quite liking L12?
ajahuang [6d\]: defend what?
wizigo [2k\]: C15
epsilon3 [1k?\]: yeah, I don't like defensive moves
kitsune01 [20k?\]: no i like it
HaneGaran: I kinda dig L12
GrnLantern [7k\]: l7
MicMac [1d\]: l12 looks like a play in your territory, even if it's not black territory for now
armada [5d\]: L12 is useless
ajahuang [6d\]: ya almost useless
bonta [1d\]: who is tromp?
ajahuang [6d\]: of course White should play N12 now
aphelionx [?\]: o12?
Imagingo [17k\]: makes you wonder what series of moves Zen thinks it is preventing
bonta [1d\]: and whose zen
blackliist: why doesnt w start invading?
nay4ok [1k?\]: l12 feels very much like a bot move.
qQQp [-\]: It would be interesting to know the winrate. Such moves should not be normal in MCTS unless it thinks it is winning
MauveDog: is Zen19N something like i18n?
wizigo [2k\]: what will N12 achieve ?
epsilon3 [1k?\]: It doesn't think about the reasons for moves
xevad [-\]: I'm sure this is for defense.. but everything I'm reading seems to be in favor of white
]
;W[km]WL[2799.986]C[xevad [-\]: I'm probably just reading the wrong moves
GrnLantern [7k\]: yeah
billywoods [8k\]: oh wow, that's brave
ajahuang [6d\]: ?
GrnLantern [7k\]: i won
qQQp [-\]: crazystone is changing its side
terrorist [5k?\]: J6 or bust
yasi [1d\]: ok. now it is the real test for bots
scrutom: that's some big fronthead
kitsune01 [20k?\]: k7 nice
MauveDog: k6
blackliist: here we go
maenad [3k\]:
bonta [1d\]: is tromp a bot too?
GrnLantern [7k\]: black must choose
Imagingo [17k\]: J6?
xevad [-\]: no human
]
;B[hm]BL[4495.285]C[scrutom: only fronthead
Imagingo [17k\]: nope, but close
MauveDog: I am disappoint
wizigo [2k\]: good and quick reply
yasi [1d\]: bot's memory got some heavy refresh
kitsune01 [20k?\]: k6
xevad [-\]: L7 still fine
LEIBNIZ [2k\]: b demolishing w thickness
wizigo [2k\]: i'm not big fan of w shapes now
ajahuang [6d\]: I can't see L7's objective
ajahuang [6d\]: what for?
armada [5d\]: w f8 thin
billywoods [8k\]: L7 looks too deep to me, hmm
billywoods [8k\]: maybe i will be proved wrong
yasi [1d\]: L7 is alright
Leibnix [5k\]: k7 looks much better
xevad [-\]: I don't see an objective it just looked like a placement
GrnLantern [7k\]: j6 or l10
bonta [1d\]: h9 felt epic, l12 seems bad
yasi [1d\]: just make robot's CPU overload for a while
aphelionx [?\]: k4?
blackliist: whos in the lead right now?
aphelionx [?\]: k5?
MitaniKun [4k\]: black is in the lead
polonius [2d?\]: don't laugh at L7, it's nakade
wizigo [2k\]: L7 looks like counter blunder to L12
kitsune01 [20k?\]: m6 start an attack
epsilon3 [1k?\]: why the bot not taking more time?
bonta [1d\]: l12 doesnt need countering..
bonta [1d\]: feels like a wasted move
]
;W[mm]WL[2640.92]C[ajahuang [6d\]: ??
xevad [-\]: because of special coding
veber [3k\]: wow
billywoods [8k\]: interesting...
ajahuang [6d\]: White is producing a weak group himself
wizigo [2k\]: this is really incredible
odnihs [-\]: zen is going to kill this
neophyte [4k\]: w wants to die again?
xevad [-\]: white uses enough time to make assess a selection of moves
bonta [1d\]: how strong is tromp?
xevad [-\]: err black I mean
Imagingo [17k\]: 3-4d KGS
Leibnix [5k\]: reminds me of yesterdays game, where w tried to make small life inside and died
wizigo [2k\]: i think the human didn't stand the pressure this time
yasi [1d\]: w is showing b how to make alive in b's moyo
]
;B[ln]BL[4440.062]C[peteg [?\]: who won the second game ?
yasi [1d\]: teach robot what human is capable of
Imagingo [17k\]: Bot won 2nd
Vash3G [-\]: zen wn
bonta [1d\]: who created zen?
GrnLantern [7k\]: l9
xevad [-\]: m6 is pretty strong
]
;W[op]WL[2609.576]C[GrnLantern [7k\]: zen allways existed
WackyFuse [6k\]: ZenAuthor
epsilon3 [1k?\]: M6 looks good
ajahuang [6d\]: white is losing
bonta [1d\]: man..... i thought i was stronger than any bot..
Imagingo [17k\]: peep-counterpeep
kitsune01 [20k?\]: like i said before m6
billywoods [8k\]: p4? :S
thanush [3d\]: w too agressive against moyo
ajahuang [6d\]: L7 and N7 are too bad
xevad [-\]: don't know where this n7 came from
WackyFuse [6k\]: i don't think its public who the author of zen is
GrnLantern [7k\]: white needs to fight
]
;B[oo]BL[4406.14]C[Imagingo [17k\]: Shoot, it's on wikipedia, Wacky
xevad [-\]: ZenAuthor is the author of zen
Imagingo [17k\]: I'm pretty sure I saw that last night
delphideo [21k\]: Yoji Ojima is the creator of Zen.
WackyFuse [6k\]: *checks*
qQQp [-\]: It is a Japanese guy known as Yamato (his name was published but I don't rememmber)
WackyFuse [6k\]: huh
neophyte [4k\]: w meltdown or what?
WackyFuse [6k\]: ok
WackyFuse [6k\]: my bad then
Ritm [6k\]: j6?
xevad [-\]: I think N7 may have lost white the game..
wizigo [2k\]: yeah w has heavy problems
GrnLantern [7k\]: p3
costco [2k\]: what other than k6 or j6 now?
costco [2k\]: if either of those work anymore
armada [5d\]: f7 will be brutal
neophyte [4k\]: imho w had the game under control until l7
MicMac [1d\]: k6 works it seems but will damaged a lot white position
qQQp [-\]: Aja is back with the protestants
Introvert [?\]: indeed L7 was pretty bad
qQQp [-\]: I am reading both and it is not as nice as one single board
xevad [-\]: I don't think L7 was as bad as n7
yasi [1d\]: i trust w has a plan
]
;W[pp]WL[2436.042]C[polonius [2d?\]: I have a board in the middle of the screen and kibitz from both games on the sides
polonius [2d?\]: it's not so bad
qQQp [-\]: Same here
neophyte [4k\]: i hope w proves all the doubters (like me) wrong
]
;B[qp]BL[4364.187]
;W[no]WL[2429.807]C[xevad [-\]: L7 seemed alright kind of left field but alright.. n7 seemed like it only helped black
rs220675 [1k\]: so if L7 was a mistake, what should have played tromp instead@highdans
wizigo [2k\]: here comes the castrophic sequence...
Introvert [?\]: how can u have kibbitz from both sides ?
polonius [2d?\]: haha
yasi [1d\]: w has plan
]
;B[nn]BL[4321.144]C[kitsune01 [20k?\]: m6 for white would have been better he cpould have saved his stones and started a fight
kitsune01 [20k?\]: could*
bonta [1d\]: damn this must be some kickass programmer to be able to make something as strong as this
veber [3k\]: MCM
]
;W[jo]WL[2353.002]C[wizigo [2k\]: you still have to make a proper implementation
yasi [1d\]: kickass mathmatician
yasi [1d\]: not programmer
polonius [2d?\]: introvert, two windows often, one in the centre, the other one almost entirely off-screen on the left
]
;B[jn]BL[4276.347]C[Leibnix [5k\]: ugh
Persians [1k\]: look like w bad
pasky [-\]: yasi: programmer, not mathematican
]
;W[kn]WL[2325.928]C[Bilapidate [1k?\]: Gotta L6
hydroxide [16k\]: top go programs dont use maths techniques...
bonta [1d\]: not all mathematicians know how to program, programming is all logic anyway, gotta have a really really great superior knowledge of go too
xevad [-\]: you have to at least know how to add
hydroxide [16k\]: just modified brute force
]
;B[jp]BL[4241.578]C[Imagingo [17k\]: Black K4, maybe
Imagingo [17k\]: Ooh
Imagingo [17k\]: Nailed it
]
;W[io]WL[2316.482]C[bonta [1d\]: or simply brilliant somehow generating "best moves" from some sort of life and death, fuseki, joseki databases
Imagingo [17k\]: K3
wizigo [2k\]: most dubious move of the game
pasky [-\]: hydroxide: the devil lies in the "modified"
blackliist: anyone have the path of go on xbox live?
yasi [1d\]: you think you can code monte carlo without good math skills?
Imagingo [17k\]: if a 17k sees it, probably dubious... or obvious
]
;B[kp]BL[4214.167]C[pasky [-\]: yasi: actually, yes
billywoods [8k\]: oof
wizigo [2k\]: define good
xevad [-\]: yeah I think black wins this game
yasi [1d\]: that is not possible
pasky [-\]: yeah, define good
Ukasuhs [3d\]: for a computer to play go off of simly a database, it would need like 361 factorial games
yasi [1d\]: somehow w's plan does not work
hydroxide [16k\]: a "good" programmer needs to be good at maths
BigDoug [-\]: please keep the comments about this game, not bot design
BigDoug [-\]: you can have the bot design discussion in the rooms -- thanks
hydroxide [16k\]: but you don't need to be a mathematician to program a go bot..
]
;W[im]WL[2268.632]C[Imagingo [17k\]: Ukasuhs - I'm sure alpha-beta pruning of that mess could be done.. still, it would be an unholy mess of games
Introvert [?\]: omg
PaperTiger [2k\]: moderated chat with dan kibitz in my games list
Introvert [?\]: w lost
Imagingo [17k\]: Sorry
bonta [1d\]: i was wondering what MCM stood for
yasi [1d\]: w is collapsing
yasi [1d\]: man
Rambam [3k\]: Markov Chain Monte Carlo
Rambam [3k\]: MCMC :O
Persians [1k\]: k3
polonius [2d?\]: how did b let this happen
Bilapidate [1k?\]: Collapsing?? W just broke into center
]
;B[ip]BL[4160.326]C[billywoods [8k\]: but white also just probably lost the whole lower side
xevad [-\]: exchange
ajahuang [6d\]: game over, after Black's K3
Ukasuhs [3d\]: and b broke into the side
MicMac [1d\]: look at white bottom
wizigo [2k\]: w side exploded
Imagingo [17k\]: Black can contain and keep any white in the center small
costco [2k\]: p4 is gonna die of whites center is gonna die i think
yasi [1d\]: total collapse
yasi [1d\]: omb
yoyoma [2d\]: The center was a tarp! The Side is dying!
yasi [1d\]: what is w's plan?
xevad [-\]: h5 and k3 win the game for black
]
;W[in]WL[2211.404]C[Persians [1k\]: f10 misread.
xevad [-\]: hmm
Leibnix [5k\]: w m3?
yasi [1d\]: w H3
yasi [1d\]: bigger kil
Leibnix [5k\]: depressing
]
;B[hq]BL[4115.54]C[kitsune01 [20k?\]: h9
yasi [1d\]: see
yasi [1d\]: oh man
Leibnix [5k\]: yea
LustaDog [?\]: Ohhh
gghideki [3k?\]: Ah
yasi [1d\]: this is .......
wizigo [2k\]: lol
SeanPenn [4k\]: wow
billywoods [8k\]: oof.
Imagingo [17k\]: Silicon 2, Carbon 1
Rambam [3k\]: tromp = human?
LEIBNIZ [2k\]: lol
rs220675 [1k\]: uhhhhh
WackyFuse [6k\]: aww.
xevad [-\]: you'll get him next game
wizigo [2k\]: he didn't want to show more
gghideki [3k?\]: Thanks
LustaDog [?\]: Ajahuang was right
yasi [1d\]: human lost to machine!
ToDie [2d\]: fighting spirit?
LustaDog [?\]: again
kalin1 [11k\]: :O
tromp [-\]: zen is brutal
hiss [-\]: this was fast
hydroxide [16k\]: black's center moyo was overplay.. white shouldn't have had to sacrifice so much to get into the center
Leibnix [5k\]: it's kasparov all over again
BigDoug [-\]: nice game
Rambam [3k\]: How strong is tromp?
xevad [-\]: next game will determine if they need to play a 5th game
yasi [1d\]: fighting spririt!
Imagingo [17k\]: Is L12 still a dumb bot trick?
billywoods [8k\]: forgive my lack of reading, but couldn't white live locally on the bottom? hmm :/
aphelionx [?\]: not avery good game,
shy [-\]: n7 bad aji keshi isnt it
shy [-\]: without that move b could move in
shy [-\]: i mean w
rs220675 [1k\]: I think white did not play fast enough at the beginning and let black have too much influence..that's not good with nirensei
xevad [-\]: I think n7 ruined the game
wizigo [2k\]: remember H7 reply
tromp [-\]: n7 assumed black would respond to p4 at q4
kitsune01 [20k?\]: white could have won
shy [-\]: ah
shy [-\]: yeah b chose the better move
tromp [-\]: felt alrd lost when playing n7
polonius [2d?\]: L7
shy [-\]: k5 instead of n7 seems ok
shy [-\]: but also i would g13 instead of k17 in fuseki
xevad [-\]: it felt like you still had a chance of winning until that point
shy [-\]: isnt it?
pasky [-\]: tromp: gogonuts and others had bad emotions about L7
tromp [-\]: i guess l7 was already a little desperate
])
