Life In 19x19

Kirby wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:
You can certainly make a good case for winning the ko. Let me bring up some things to consider.

$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X X X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . . O O O O O X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X X X . X O . X X X O X X a |
$$ | O O B B O O O X X X O X X O X X O O O |
$$ | . O B B O X X X O O X X O O O O O C O |
$$ | O B B O O O X O O X X O O O B O O B O |
$$ | . O B B O O O C O X O O B B B O B C B |
$$ | O O C B B B C O O X O C O B 1 B B B B |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X X X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . . O O O O O X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X X X . X O . X X X O X X a |
$$ | O O B B O O O X X X O X X O X X O O O |
$$ | . O B B O X X X O O X X O O O O O C O |
$$ | O B B O O O X O O X X O O O B O O B O |
$$ | . O B B O O O C O X O O B B B O B C B |
$$ | O O C B B B C O O X O C O B 1 B B B B |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If wins the ko, which is an approach ko, White gets 45 points in the marked area -- if I have counted correctly --, and later White has a 7 pt. sente at "a", if not something better. So let's count 52 pts. for White here.

I pretty much follow, but I don't understand the count. There are 23 captured black stones, which would be 46 points for the captures, plus any empty intersections, right?

Yes, that's better. White gets 52 pts. there. Then if Black plays at "a" he gains 7 pts. on the right side.

I want to come back on this position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . c . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . O . O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . b . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The open sides, the left and the top, have a superior number of white stones. Black's areas of development have already been invaded by white groups. The time is not right for me to leave the battlefield and compete with White in the top left (a). It feels like Black needs to squeeze a bit more out of having outnumbered White in the lower right. There's a sente move against the live group (b) and the cap at (c) increases Black influence towards the opean area while attacking White's heavy threesome.

This leads to the following diagram

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 6 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 5 . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . b . . . . X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . O . O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black harasses the lower right group with 1 to 4, then caps the white threesome. After White 10, it may be appropriate to move into the left side, at (a). Also possible is expanding the moyo with (b).

Inseong agrees that the tenuki at 'a' was a bit early, and that I should continue with the pressure. His recommendation was R11 to take territory, while pressuring the heavy white group.

Kirby wrote: Either way, it sounds like capturing the ko was a viable option - but I had no idea about calculating points per move, etc.

It was pretty much based on emotion/feeling

I'm surprised that you don't do this when evaluating trades like this. It's one thing when the ko involves some amorphous open area involving future thickness or moyo or whatever - I wouldn't know how to count that well either, that's down to judgment. But it's quite another when it's actually the life and death of a sealed-in group, then you can count very easily.

Since each stone involved is 2 points, you can just count tetris-like blocks of 5 stones and go "10, 20, 30, .." points quite rapidly. Doing that in this case it takes only a few seconds of effort to see that the raw territory swing is ~70 points. Then you can optimize further as Bill did and consider that ''a'' would be 7-9ish points in sente afterwards for white, and add that to the value. Also add a tiny bit value for black's outer wall being weaker, but it's pretty strong so not much. So ~80 points. Since the swing happens over 4 moves (1 for white to win the ko, 3 for black to win the ko), that's ~20 points per move.

And if you keep in mind the following rough values, that gives you a useful mental guide to how big the thing is:

Ordinary big opening move: ~12-15 points/move (~= fair komi * 2)
Unusually huge opening move (a critical move that completes a huge moyo, etc): maybe ~15-18 points, possibly a little higher sometimes, depends on how critical
Big-macro-endgame: ~7-10 points/move ("sente monkey jumps" into 4th line areas, some patterns involving capturing 2 stones on the side, giant second line hane-connects)
Middle-endgame: ~3-7 points/move (various second line kosumis, monkey jumps into 3rd-line areas, capture single second line stone with small or gote followups)

These are the same as "miai counting" values for moves, or another way to think of it is "how much would the opponent have to pay me in additional komi for me to be indifferent between making this move and passing?", if you happen to have some intuition for the latter.

I find it a very useful technique to get a rough sense of how big a local ko is. Or when to actually live with a tripod-like-group (with tripod-sized groups, they're often not quite big enough to create and live with right away, so deciding when is a tricky timing issue), or when to ignore a cut or atari that threatens some local garbage stones that are cashwise big but don't have a huge effect on outer influence or strength of the groups involved.

lightvector wrote:I'm surprised that you don't do this when evaluating trades like this

I can't say that anything you're arguing is wrong, lightvector (partially because you're probably right, and partially because I wouldn't be able to tell if you weren't :-p).

There are probably two reasons that this type of evaluation never entered my mind:
1.) Byo-yomi. I felt a bit of pressure being in byo-yomi, so it's hard for me to do logical computations here. Something I need to practice more.

2.) I don't think that this type of mathematical calculation is my strong suit. I rarely think numbers while playing go, except maybe occasionally in the endgame. If I have 40 minutes to play a game, most of my effort goes into reading sequences, thinking about attack and/or defense of groups, and things like that. I'm using a different part of my brain than when I try to do mathematical calculations.

So to think of numbers like "7-10 points for big-macro-endgame"... well, it's not something I'm very used to. My current method of playing is more based on experience thinking, "ouch, that was big, or ooh, this feels good to grab this point, because it feels more than what he got over there". It's certainly not very precise, and I could probably improve a little bit by working out the numbers more.

But I won't deny that it's one of my weak points, which I rarely practice that much.

Endgame and/or ko-type calculations are kind of interesting/amusing to me a bit, but maybe less so than other parts of the game.

I guess sooner or later I have to improve this part of my go playing ability, but I haven't really looked forward to it.

Lost due to misread, again. I need to be more careful. I read quickly sometimes, and have some confidence, but I miss a line.

More problems are needed, I guess.

Here's the game with my comments:

Some positions I'm not sure about.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . B . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . a . O X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The weak point around 'a' bugs me. On the other hand, I can't think of an elegant way to protect it. I'm inclined to leave the attack, or maybe to defend at 'b'. Nothing seems totally satisfying.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X X . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . O . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . X . X . X X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . X O O . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I wonder if my move above is an overplay. After black's simple extension, I was a bit at a loss.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X X . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X B . . . . , . O . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . X . X . X X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . X O O . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here, too:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X X . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X X B . . . , . O . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . X . X . X X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . X O O . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Again, I'm a bit at a loss. The best I can think of is this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X X . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . , . O . . . O O . . |
$$ | . 2 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . X . X . X X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . X O O . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But it doesn't feel totally satisfying.

After dying on the left, I flipped on my "desperation mode" switch, so I'm not sure how valuable the analysis is after that.

I took a look at the pro game a little bit from the other thread.

Not seriously studying the game, but more like just clicking through it, seeing where I would have played differently.

I'm trying to study more pro games, but it's a little boring to me.



Maybe if I keep doing it, I'll get more interested in pro games.

Hi Kirby,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . B . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . O X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

How about ?

Looks pretty good to me.

Lost another game.

At least I played a game.

Here it is:

I don't want to dwell too much on this game. I think this move summarizes my attitude:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . . . O . X . . O O . |
$$ | . X X X . O . . . , . . . . . X X X X |
$$ | O O . . X O . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | X X X . . X . . . . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X . a , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . W . O . O . . . . . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . O . . . X X O O O X X . O O X . X . |
$$ | . X X X . X O O X X O X . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X . O X . O . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . X O X . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

He played tenuki with 'a'. Of course my move isn't sente, and it can't be that big.

Very careless.

Maybe I was in "handicap mode". Either way, another loss.

I'll try to focus more next time.

I decided to play in the Seattle Go Center's Anniversary tournament. I didn't study a lot this week because I have been pretty sick (flu, maybe?).

Normally I play in the handicap section, but they hadn't 7 out of the desired 8 players for the strong player open section. I signed up to make an even 8, and I'm by far the weakest player (only player close to me is 2 stone stone stronger).

I just finished my first game. My opponents is white, and apparently, an ex-insei from Japan. He registered as 8d.

Needless to say, I embarrassed myself.

Here's the game:


I resigned.

I like the prospect of playing stronger players, but with such a gap in strength, are we even really playing a game?

Next game coming up in 30 minutes. I'll try to post it.

Smiley in byōyomi.