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#239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=10611

Page 8 of 13

Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:08 am
by EdLee
SoDesuNe wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm40
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 1 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Looks Seki-esk to me.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | 9 O 5 0 7 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | 1 X X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . 6 4 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X 2 X O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 O X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | X X X 1 X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | 4 O X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm15
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O 1 O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | O O X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
B wins the ko and kills ?

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:11 am
by drmwc
Ed:
Here seems better for White:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . O . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | 1 X X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Next, if B wants to kill:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . O 1 . O 7 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | X X X 5 X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | 8 O X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O 6 2 4 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Seems to be seki. Not all moves are necessary, and W can tenuki at various points and still have seki.

So it may be more fun to B to start operations in the first diagram with a move at 2 e.g.:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . O . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | 2 X X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
I suspect it's no improvement - both sides have no eyes and there are a reaonable number of shared liberties, which tends to result in a seki. But at least this way B is more likely to get sente.

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:48 am
by SoDesuNe
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 2 B . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 4 X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 3 X . X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
The marked stone also has this "problem".
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Maybe I should just play this? But if White just connects, there is still a Ko in the corner, isn't there?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . 3 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 4 . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X W O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . 1 X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X 5 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
So, kind of following the original plan and playing like this?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . 7 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 5 8 . 1 X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Or still Ko?...If Black wins White can still connect his stones...

Troublesome :P

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:11 am
by EdLee
Hi drmwc,
drmwc wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . O . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | 1 X X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Thanks for the :w2: placement.
I had a feeling it may make a difference, but was lazy. :)

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:41 am
by SoDesuNe
In the middle of moving, might take a few more days - sorry!

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:12 am
by SoDesuNe
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Everything else just feels passive. And I also forgot most of the variations I drew already ^^

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:51 am
by EdLee
Hmm… cap race.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . 8 . 6 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 4 5 O X 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:05 am
by Uberdude
EdLee wrote:Hmm… cap race.
That doesn't work for black, a 'Belgian' ko.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . 0 8 . 6 c 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | a 9 7 4 5 O X 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:12 am
by EdLee
Couldn't find Belgian ko at Sensei's ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W B gets gote ?
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 5 . O X 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 8 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:21 am
by Uberdude
It's a shape that looks like a ko but isn't. A term coined by the French/Dutch as a joke on the Belgians supposedly being a bit dumb. There's a few mentions on SL but not as a full page. See half way down http://senseis.xmp.net/?UserCreatedGoSlang or http://senseis.xmp.net/?topic=2707. By extension a Belgian ko threat is a duff threat which you can answer by resolving the ko. Apologies to Hushfield, Knotwilg and any other Belgians :) .

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:00 am
by EdLee
But Poirot is Belgian.


SDN, TZ: the plot thickens, doesn't it. :mrgreen:

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:49 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Not sure I have any choice about this - makes his wall a bit thin, but a disappointing result. I think I was greedy trying to mess around keeping the kill alive. The solid connection earlier just looks clearly better now.

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:30 am
by SoDesuNe
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:13 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30 :b1: :w100:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 C 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:51 am
by SoDesuNe
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to kill
$$ +-----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . O X . .
$$ | . . X O O O O X . . .
$$ | . . X , X O X X . , .
$$ | . . X . X X O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
:P
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