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Who stands better in this fuseki?

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=10867

Page 8 of 15

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 12:26 pm
by Shaddy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm9
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 1 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I like this way best.

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 1:11 pm
by Pippen
@shaddy: And how would u play if White pushes? Would u try to catch White or to connect both black groups somehow or would u just accept the two seperate black groups and go from there?

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 2:20 pm
by Shaddy
If he pushes, B has to hane I guess, and then W probably also has to hane and B double hane looks ok? Maybe if the ensuing capturing race doesn't favor Black, then Black has to attach on top of W6 and play knight's move instead of diagonal, but the idea is to push the W stone against the wall.

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 3:10 pm
by Pippen
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
As strange as it sounds but I think Black is doing fine with this double hane. I do not see an obvious sequence where White can escape at all or with not giving Black sente and huge outside influence. Does anybody?

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 3:38 pm
by Shaddy
Is that strange?

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 4:03 pm
by Uberdude
This is a simple and good answer for white.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm9
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 , 1 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 4:25 pm
by Pippen
@überdude: So do you like shaddy's idea or mine (some posts above) better for Black?

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Sun May 31, 2015 2:51 am
by Uberdude
Shaddy's. Yours is meaningless fighting: white's three stones are not weak as there is the 2nd line attachment. Press and kosumi is a joseki when black has a three space extension. With the four space maybe white can break out, I didn't read a lot.

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Sun May 31, 2015 8:31 am
by Pippen
...

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Sun May 31, 2015 12:38 pm
by Uberdude
Bad idea. The split stone is not light, it is a wasted stone in a crap place. Those two are not synonyms however much you wish they were. You need to make your stones work together efficiently.

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Sun May 31, 2015 1:55 pm
by Bki
I'm a little curious about it because it has been played against me a few times, but would a high approach be better or worse here?

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Sun May 31, 2015 3:04 pm
by Uberdude
Bki, not sure if high is better or worse. White can split and fight both. But a downside of high is you give white the easy option of attaching underneath for a big corner (reverts to joseki). But are the players happy with that joseki? Black usually prefers hanging connection so he can extend further. But maybe white wouldn't like to play the checking extension immediately.

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Sun May 31, 2015 3:19 pm
by emeraldemon
I just got the go4go database and I'm having fun playing with it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
A has 513 games, B 105, C 57. A few other approaches, but the split is never played. If black approaches low:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
a and b are almost equally common, 23 and 22 games. The widest path from 'a' looks like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm6
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
If black plays high, the attach is overwhelmingly the most common response:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 b . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
'a' has 138 games, 'b' has 102. It's interesting to me that the light jump up 'c' is slightly more popular than the tiger's mouth 'd' (33-28).

So the high approach is more common than the low, these are the most common followups, which do split up the white side, but starting with the split isn't played by pros (yet!)

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Sun May 31, 2015 4:08 pm
by ez4u
emeraldemon wrote:I just got the go4go database and I'm having fun playing with it...

If black plays high, the attach is overwhelmingly the most common response:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 b . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
'a' has 138 games, 'b' has 102. It's interesting to me that the light jump up 'c' is slightly more popular than the tiger's mouth 'd' (33-28).

So the high approach is more common than the low, these are the most common followups, which do split up the white side, but starting with the split isn't played by pros (yet!)
A data-driven post after my own heart! :clap:
On 'c' versus 'd', just remember that these days the tiger's mouth is almost always preceded by the probe at 'a'. So in fact the tiger's mouth (delayed) is the most frequent choice seen in pro games.

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Sun May 31, 2015 4:11 pm
by Pippen
Black looks better here for me. White may have some corner points, but without further potential and Black has sente to play 7. Since I play my split fuseki it is a real question if a high approach at 1 or a low at 2 is better for Black. Maybe a low approach at 2 so far from the split stone (4 points between) is not so good, kind of a shape thing to continue high. I think I'll need a congress of split-fuseki-dogmatics to solve it^^.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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