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#244 Bill vs Ed

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=11002

Page 8 of 22

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:11 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
CnP wrote:... I'd be tempted to play white 55 here
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm54
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X 1 . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O . X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
...
I don't think that extending the cutting stone is a high priority for white. It can't be laddered because of Q13, and it can't be netted ( I think )

My reflex would be to play as shown below, making eye space, and make black worry about whether or not the cutting stone is going to get stronger.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm54
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X 1 . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . 5 X X 3 O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O 2 X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . 4 . . O . . . 6 . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

OR, white could sacrifice part of the corner for the first play in a very critical part of the board:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm54
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X 1 . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . 5 X X 3 O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O 2 X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . 4 . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:40 pm
by Bill Spight
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
CnP wrote:... I'd be tempted to play white 55 here
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm54
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X 1 . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O . X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
...
I don't think that extending the cutting stone is a high priority for white. It can't be laddered because of Q13, and it can't be netted ( I think )
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O 2 4 5 . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X 6 7 . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . O O X 8 . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O . X O . . . X 9 . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Edit: Unhidden.

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:01 pm
by EdLee
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm55
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O 1 X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
( Local time Sat Nov 15, 2014. 09:01 am )

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:40 pm
by Aidoneus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm56
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X 1 O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
All these forcing moves are just getting rid of my bad aji, right?! Though I guess it makes his group safe.

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:41 pm
by EdLee
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm57
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . 1 . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
( Local time Sat Nov 15, 2014. 09:41 am )

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:03 am
by tj86430
Bill Spight wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
CnP wrote:... I'd be tempted to play white 55 here
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm54
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X 1 . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O . X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
...
I don't think that extending the cutting stone is a high priority for white. It can't be laddered because of Q13, and it can't be netted ( I think )
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O 2 4 5 . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X 6 7 . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . O O X 8 . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O . X O . . . X 9 . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
This prompts a question to all stronger players (say dan-ranked) out there. Let's say you are white and black has just played :b1:. Since he is a weaker player, there is a real possibility, that he hasn't read the entire sequence, but may be thinking that straight ladder works or whatever. The question is this: how long are you prepared to follow the sequence above, before you are sure that black will indeed know what he is doing and capture the cutting stone?

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:18 am
by Uberdude
As a dan player I wouldn't have played those crude pushes and atari which make black stronger unless I was then going to extend my cutting stone.

But to answer the question, if I were in that position I might play a ladder breaker and obviously look at the cutting stone to try to psych my opponent into unnecessarily capturing it so I get a free move elsewhere (but it's preferable if the ladder breaker is not a bad move if answered). If he doesn't fall for that and I pull the stone out and he nets then tenuki and hope to use the aji later.

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 6:42 am
by paK0
I think banking on straight up reading mistakes is a lot less reliable in correspondence games, at least when it comes to basic things like ladders.

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 7:00 am
by Aidoneus
Hi Ed,

Friday night my wife "owns" our TV (where my PC is hooked up) from 8:00-12:00 PM. After her shows went off, I was too tired to post. Especially as I seemed to have so many options. Sorry for the delay.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm58
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
I believe that we are definitely in the middle game now. Hence I have even less idea of what is going on. My first thought was to play C11, the move I had expected to make after "forcing" White to respond to B3. I considered B13 to try and seal off White's top corner, as well. Also, I briefly considered moves at F9, G8, L16, P12, and S6. Too many candidate moves! I kept coming back to look at J7 to kill White's cutting stone in a net and thus keep my groups connected. I figure that keeping all of these stones connected will make it much harder for White to start any hanky panky than if I secured a few points elsewhere. Bill is always asking me "What are you afraid of?" So, I can almost hear his response to my last move already! Nevertheless, the played move feels right to me--maybe why I'm still a weak DDK, ya think? :lol:

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:00 am
by Bill Spight
What are you afraid of? ;)

@ Ed: Not really giving anything away. As Bill's hidden comment indicates. :)

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:23 am
by Bill Spight
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm58
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X W . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
:b58: here is better. For one thing, it is a dual attack. For another, as an attack on the floating stone, :wc:, it is larger scale. Black wants :wc: to run.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm58
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Aside from the question of the best play, I think that Bill should have reverted to :b58: here. That was his original plan, after all, and nothing has happened to make it a bad one. I am strongly influenced by How Not to Play Chess by Znosko-Borovsky. He stressed making plans and sticking by them. Is your opponent going to interfere with your plan? Throw sand in the works? Probably. So what? Weakness of heart is not a winning approach.
Danton wrote: De l'audace! Encore de l'audace! Toujours de l'audace!
:)

Edit: Unhidden.

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:30 am
by Aidoneus
Bill Spight wrote:What are you afraid of? ;)
Spiders! I've lost count of how many times they've feasted on my eyelids at night!!

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:52 am
by Bill Spight
@ tj86430

It does not pay to disrespect your opponent, even if you are giving him 6 stones.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . a 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O 2 . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O . X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Besides, :w2: is a desperate measure. If Black captures the White stones, it is a clear loss. But let's suppose that Black thought that the ladder worked. Now, if he has half a brain, he will realize that it doesn't. He may well wake up and realize that he does not need to capture the floating stones. Suppose that he plays :b3: to protect the cutting point at "a". This is still a bad exchange for White.

As White in a high handicap game you have to play for mistakes. You can't say, if I play there he will kill me. Instead you say, if he could kill me I wouldn't be giving him 6 stones. But assuming a specific error is usually asking too much. Especially if it means not only that he will make an error, but that he has already made an error, because if he makes the future error his earlier play was wrong. You are asking for two specific errors. Odds are against that. :)

Edit: Unhidden.

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:55 am
by Bill Spight
Aidoneus wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:What are you afraid of? ;)
Spiders! I've lost count of how many times they've feasted on my eyelids at night!!
You can give 9 stones to any spider, easy. ;)

Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:49 pm
by EdLee
Bill Spight wrote:What are you afraid of? ;)

@ Ed: Not really giving anything away. As Bill's hidden comment indicates. :)
Hi Aidoneus, no problem at all.

Bill, I have no idea what all the recent public kibitz means. :)
I'm just scrambling to get WiFi. Right now, I'm standing
near some escalator in a mall -- the WiFi signal seems to be stable here.
Traveling with no reliable WiFi and playing a turn-based game on an iPhone 4S is an interesting experience. :)

( Local time: Sunday Nov 16, 2014. 12:49 pm )
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