Page 8 of 33
Re: Prokovich game
Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:15 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Because you are not Japanese.
Re: Prokovich game
Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:19 am
by flOvermind
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
$$Bcm17 Another bad sequence for black
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm17 Another bad sequence for black
Really? With white crawling on the second line? Ok, black still has to defend the weakness, so white gets sente, but still I don't really like white in this diagram...
Why do you consider that bad for black?
Re: Prokovich game
Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:34 am
by topazg
I agree, a continuation as follows looks quite ok to me:
$$Bcm25 Another bad sequence for black
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm25 Another bad sequence for black
Re: Prokovich game
Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:07 am
by amnal
topazg wrote:
I agree, a continuation as follows looks quite ok to me:
$$Bcm25 Another bad sequence for black
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm25 Another bad sequence for black$$Bcm17 Another bad sequence for black?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm17 Another bad sequence for black?
With the 3-3 point, you must be like a spring. It's fine to sit tight in your little corner, but if black tries to squash you too hard you have to spring up in his face.
I would try to find a way to play like this, to cut black. If white can do so, black has a group with a known weakness and a new weak group with a cutting point. I don't think white should be too concernet about linking with all his stones straight away.
I could well be wrong, but I feel that something like this is a valid line of play.
Re: Prokovich game
Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:39 am
by dfan
I think Joaz was the first to see this coming, nice job. I'm learning a lot from this game as we go, and I already know the moves!
$$Bcm19 ACTUAL GAME: Move 19
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm19 ACTUAL GAME: Move 19
Re: Prokovich game
Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:28 am
by Tooveli
My thoughts:
I think it's obvious that White has to come out with the corner stone and there seem to be only two possible moves.
$$ a or b?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$ a or b?
If white plays a I imagine the game to proceed as mitsun previously suggested:
$$W Even?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W Even?
In this position, I think I would take Black, but the game is close. Black seems slightly behind on territory (assuming komi = 5.5 or 6.5) because the bottom is undercut, but it's Black's move, the left side for White is not territory yet and Black's sacrifice stone looks to have a little more aji than White's.
If White plays b then things get complicated. I imagine the sequence to 5 (below).
$$W Complicated
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W Complicated
This looks better for White than the previous diagram so I think White will play b next.
Re: Prokovich game
Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:00 am
by Joaz Banbeck
Tooveli wrote: My thoughts:
I think it's obvious that White has to come out with the corner stone and there seem to be only two possible moves.
$$ a or b?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$ a or b?
I agree.
Tooveli wrote:
If white plays a I imagine the game to proceed as mitsun previously suggested:
$$W Even?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W Even?
In this position, I think I would take Black, but the game is close. Black seems slightly behind on territory (assuming komi = 5.5 or 6.5) because the bottom is undercut, but it's Black's move, the left side for White is not territory yet and Black's sacrifice stone looks to have a little more aji than White's.
There is no way that white will let this happen.
The current fight is still about H3. For white to allow
is conceding the fight to black.
Tooveli wrote:
If White plays b then things get complicated. I imagine the sequence to 5 (below).
$$W Complicated
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W Complicated
This looks better for White than the previous diagram so I think White will play b next.
Black will not play
in the diagram above. The bottom is way more important to black than the side. He will play like this:
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W
Again, black is trying to keep M3 weak so that H3 cannot work.
Re: Prokovich game
Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:27 am
by Tooveli
To Joaz: I'm surprised about your direction analysis - could you explain why you think the bottom is more important? I was thinking that the bottom is undercut by C2 so not all that valuable whereas if Black splits the right then R13 becomes a joint attack and extension from the shimari which is good for Black.
I also don't understand 4 in your diagram.
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W
How do you continue after a? If you cut, then White extends and the fight looks good for White. If you do anything else then White connects and it feels like White has been squeezed out while Black got bad shape on both sides (right is heavier for black and the stone on the bottom has plenty of room eg. b,c,d). I think that once Black plays 2 he wants to follow up at a.
If the bottom is more important, then I think black should play as below:
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W
but this is very painful because now White doesn't have to play a (like the variation with a before 1) and can play b instead if it's better (I think it is).
I'm ready (and waiting) for the professionals to prove me completely wrong here
Re: Prokovich game
Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:50 am
by Dusk Eagle
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W
I agree with Tooveli here.
seems too thin, and black will end up hurt.
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W
If anything, I think it's more likely that black will play like this, but I still don't really like this for black.
Re: Prokovich game
Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:24 pm
by dfan
$$Wcm20 ACTUAL GAME: Move 20
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm20 ACTUAL GAME: Move 20
I'm curious how play would have proceeded if White played at
a instead since that seemed to be what people here were fearing more (as Black).
Re: Prokovich game
Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:13 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Ok, black got what he wanted: a chance to play around O3/P3 without white responding with M5. Now he can go after M3. The standard technique, of course, is to come from the weak side and push the victim toward the stronger stones. So black will expand off of O3.
$$Wcm20
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm20 seems the most severe.
The next move
Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:26 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
As I mentioned earlier, letting black have this:
$$Wcm20
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm20
...is just giving him what he wants.
So white will contest like this:
$$Wcm20
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm20
Re: Prokovich game
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:49 am
by dfan
$$Bcm21 ACTUAL GAME: Move 21
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 ACTUAL GAME: Move 21
I think everyone predicted the move that was played, but the commentary thought the following might have been better:
$$Bc Variation
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Variation
Re: Prokovich game
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:02 pm
by dfan
$$Wcm22 ACTUAL GAME: Move 22
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm22 ACTUAL GAME: Move 22
Re: Prokovich game
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:04 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
BTW, in case nobody has said it...THANK YOU DFAN
is conceding the fight to black.
seems the most severe.