Life In 19x19

topazg wrote:I make a point of checking the clock time when I move,

If you take longer for a move, how often do you re-check? Are you able to read out a long sequence that takes you 1-2 min to read, if you have only 1:30 min left?

Liisa wrote:point is that byouyomi (秒読み、びょうよみ) means reading seconds out loud. ...

Actually, this is not completely true. The kanji are for "seconds" and "reading", and I don't think that there is an inherent requirement that seconds are read out loud (although this is typically what is done in pro go).

秒読み can be translated in English as "countdown" - and even in English, a countdown doesn't have to be out loud (eg. the countdown to Christmas).

An example in Japanese where it is not out loud (I just did a quick online search) is here:
条約締結もいよいよ秒読みの段階に入った, (http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/je2/64 ... %E3%81%BF/) which they translate on the link as "the treaty will be concluded shortly". Literally, I might say that it is "The conclusion of the treaty has finally entered the countdown stage". In this example, it doesn't require that somebody is sitting there audibly counting down until the treaty has been concluded.

In any case, the word 秒読み itself does not necessitate an audible countdown, as you are trying to imply. By the same token, 本を読む does not necessitate reading a book aloud. It just implies reading.

So 秒読み is basically "countdown". Whether or not its audible is up to the specific scenario (though it is common in professional go).

Harleqin wrote:

topazg wrote:I make a point of checking the clock time when I move,

If you take longer for a move, how often do you re-check? Are you able to read out a long sequence that takes you 1-2 min to read, if you have only 1:30 min left?

To begin with, I check every 15 moves or so. if my clock gets below 20 minutes, probably every 3 or 4 moves, if it gets to 5 minutes, I'll glance every move. If I have 1:30 left, I will give up reading at perhaps 20 or 30 seconds for every move and play whatever makes the most sense after that.

Obviously I cannot do 2 mins of reading in 1:30

topazg wrote:I make a point of checking the clock time when I move, as time management is important. I would like a digital clock for this reason too, as it is easier (for me) to at a glance see exactly how long I have. Even if it is 34 minutes and 12 seconds, the absolutely accurate clarity I find reassuring.

Do I remember correctly that you are a chess player as well?

Keeping track of the clock is very important in chess. When I play a tournament chess game, I actually write down the current clock time after every single move (my opponent's moves included) until my remaining time is low enough that I don't even record my moves at all. I think that that habit makes me less sympathetic to people losing track of their time remaining.

mohsart wrote:That's about Ing timers, not Byo-Yomi.
While most people seem to dislike the sound, it is when they occationally don't make sounds people complain about losing on time because they were expecting it.
I find this quite laughable.

/Mats

It seems to me that many people want their clock to make sound, but not too much. Which is why they complain about the Ing timer's verbosity, but also about it being off when it is.

I agree. I don't need my clock to tell me "Black 20 seconds, one time!" every single byoyomi period. That's just distracting, I already know how many seconds my byoyomi period is. I want it to tell me when I enter byoyomi with a (long) beep, and I want it to count down the last few seconds. Preferably a beep at 10 seconds left, then a beep every second for the last 5 seconds.

Kirby wrote:So 秒読み is basically "countdown". Whether or not its audible is up to the specific scenario.

It is always healthy to keep things in context. It is not very useful, if Ing clock reads seconds silently by herself! Idea of byouyomi is that there is an assistant who reads seconds to players and this was also the inspiration for Ing clock.

Liisa wrote:

Kirby wrote:So 秒読み is basically "countdown". Whether or not its audible is up to the specific scenario.

It is always healthy to keep things in context. It is not very useful, if Ing clock reads seconds silently by herself! Idea of byouyomi is that there is an assistant who reads seconds to players and this was also the inspiration for Ing clock.

It is true that byouyomi in the context of go is typically verbal for pro games, for example. I am just pointing out that it might be difficult to make the argument that the word roots of 秒読み *necessarily* imply an AUDIBLE countdown, as was seemed to be implied.

HermanHiddema wrote:I want it to tell me when I enter byoyomi with a (long) beep, and I want it to count down the last few seconds. Preferably a beep at 10 seconds left, then a beep every second for the last 5 seconds.

How much do you consider those players who play next to you and they happen to also be in byouyomi. And then your clock starts beeping every 20 seconds? Is it not a distraction for them?

I asked a native speaker. In his response, he addressed the case of the use of the word in go in particular:

Is the 秒読み audible?: In my opinion, a lot of people consider 秒読み to be audible, but It couldn't be audible in some specific situations.(When, for instance, you watch on a digital clock, you could say "時計が秒読みするのを見ています。")

So I think that it's pretty standard to have audible byo-yomi for go, especially in pro games. But there are instances when the byo-yomi is not audible.

In the quote above, he even mentioned the case of silent byo-yomi with digital clocks, when I hadn't even brought them up.

Harleqin wrote:Passes should simply never end the game by themselves. They mark a good opportunity for the players to agree to end the game, but nothing more.

I absolutely agree, but it's probably too late to change the rules of Go.

Personally, I would prefer completely silent Ing timers (or other electronical devices).
I don't have a big problem with them talking though, though at eg EGC if many people are playing in the same room it can be a little bit distracting.
And I do prefer Byo-Yomi to Canadian overtime, those two are the only systems I have experience from.
Edit: Well sudden death too.

/Mats

Personally I don't need or want much noise from the clock. For me the single beep the Excalibur offers is just right. In 30 sec byo-yomi, a beep with 5 sec left seems about right to me, but this is adjustable.

palapiku wrote:

Harleqin wrote:Passes should simply never end the game by themselves. They mark a good opportunity for the players to agree to end the game, but nothing more.

I absolutely agree, but it's probably too late to change the rules of Go.

Which "rules of Go" are you talking about? The treatment of passes and game end is quite different between the many rule sets in use. There are no unified rules of Go yet.

Harleqin wrote:Which "rules of Go" are you talking about? The treatment of passes and game end is quite different between the many rule sets in use. There are no unified rules of Go yet.

IIRC all rulesets end the game with some number of passes. I don't think there's any ruleset that treats passes the same as normal moves and ends the game on agreement, which seems like the conceptually sane thing to do.

palapiku wrote:

Harleqin wrote:Which "rules of Go" are you talking about? The treatment of passes and game end is quite different between the many rule sets in use. There are no unified rules of Go yet.

IIRC all rulesets end the game with some number of passes. I don't think there's any ruleset that treats passes the same as normal moves and ends the game on agreement, which seems like the conceptually sane thing to do.

I would not fear holding up a sane opinion. The concept that passes are just a different kind of move is a quite modern invention, by the way, and their significance for a game end as well.
Also, many amateur tournaments do not even have a defined rule set.