Life In 19x19

Just taking some cash ...

Diag 1
White has 'a'.

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[go]$$Bcm01 Prisoner Count:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 2 X O 1 a . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Diag 2a

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[go]$$Bcm01 Prisoner Count:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 4 5 9 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X 3 8 . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O 1 0 . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Diag 2b
Black dies.

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[go]$$Bcm01 Prisoner Count:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 6 X C X O . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 5 3 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Diag 2b variation
Black dies.

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[go]$$Bcm01 Prisoner Count:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X 3 X O . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Diag 3
In principle 'a' is bad for black. But my influence is far too great for me to worry about it.

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[go]$$Bcm01 Prisoner Count:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 4 5 a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X 3 . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O 1 . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Diag 1. Black has the ladder.

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[go]$$Bcm01 Prisoner Count:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X 2 5 . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Diag 2. This is OK for Black.

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[go]$$Bcm01 Prisoner Count:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X 3 . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Diag 3. For white to play this way would be insane.

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[go]$$Bcm01 Prisoner Count:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X 3 . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Diag 4. After W2, black has 'a' or 'b'.

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[go]$$Bcm01 Prisoner Count:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now that I look at it, I cannot imagine how white can come out of this exchange better than black. At least not without starting a fight. Or without a tennuki. Say perhaps at tengen?

IMO, Joppon is greatly overestimating the value of his wall. Also, in a lot of his sequences White makes thank you moves that throw away sente

I'll take sente and a nice big corner ... I think I'll jump over to Q10 next and strengthen myself there.

Aphelion wrote:IMO, Joppon is greatly overestimating the value of his wall. Also, in a lot of his sequences White makes thank you moves that throw away sente

well, i also estimate black wall worth pretty much and i guess i would prefer playing as black if i were to choose which color continue with. what bothers me more are two unresolved situations on the right and bottom side, where black make large profit with a single move, but white can equally easily build himself a stronghold for an important reduction of black's influence.

another area where i can feel some tension is the left side - black five stones are now much stronger than white four, but once white adds a jump towards the bottom, his group is not so easy to attack anymore and at some point black will have to take care of his stones on the left and possibly even his great wall if white gets also Q11 on the right

with 2-3 so unstable areas both players have to be careful to settle them in the correct order and in the most preferable way

about variations, perhaps joppon could consider whether all included diagrams are really useful or if it would be better for clarity to just show the most reasonable ones and rest shorten to something like 'i don't see any good result for white if he chooses to atari XY'

Can you give a little more detail on how white omitting E5 sente affected the bottom left ? I have a nightmare of a time with crosscut joseki.

If I were Marcus, I would try to "begrudgingly" let that bamboo joint die* to buy some new, more flexible centre stones.


*NB my "style" seems to involve letting many of my own stones die.

Joppon really likes to make things complicated ... of course, I need to find a way to take advantage of the chaos ... look at all the possible cuts!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoner Count:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X c X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . 0 . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X b . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Not counting the two spots where we each have a single stone touching, this is my last weak "group". Now the aim will be to make the little weaknesses in joppon's positions dangerous for him.

I wonder how I'll do that?

Loons, when I play thhe crosscut in certain situations I get a (small) feeling of unease because of the difficulty of determining likely outcomes. In situations like this I simply wait to to see what my opponents do and then say: This is what I want from this position. And then I try to find a sequence that best approximates my desire.

Are there such things as crosscut joseki? Or perhaps you refer to joseki which feature such cuts. In the former case, it depends upon where they are played on the board, the positions of nearby stones etc.

To actually answer your question: I'm not sure that E5 is sente. But that probably has to do with my never having studied the concept. E5's relevance to my mind, is its effect on the centre. In taking the bottom left, Marcus has gained about 20pts. And is about 30pts ahead overall. However, black has so much influence that white will probably spend much of the rest of the game on the run, trying to live. My cutting stone, because of Marcus' choosing to take the corner has simply allowed me to take sente. From this point of view W78 was overplay? If something like below occurs and I was white, I would not be happy.

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[go]$$Bcm01 Prisoner Count:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X 3 X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . O . 6 . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 1 5 . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm talking about the F4 'wall' that comes from his last corner exchange, not the Black north wall

Aphelion wrote:Laman:
I'm talking about the F4 'wall' that comes from his last corner exchange, not the Black north wall

ah, i see. black's formulation sounds exaggerated, but i also like walls and the more walls you have, the better

now i wonder how to continue with black to gain most... i agree with Loons that white center stones are probably too heavy to be worth an effort to save them

diagram 120-1 shows what i consider a nice sequence for black. once white takes gote for settle his floating group, black stakes out a big territory with 'a'

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[go]$$Bcm1 Diagram 120-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O W O . 2 . 4 . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . 1 . 3 . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O a . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i also considered playing 1 at 2, driving white the other way and finishing the sequence with 5, claiming the right side. i am eager to see how will white solve the situation