Mnemonic wrote:Can't say I agree with black’s last move.
It depends, partly, on the score. If B is ahead by taking 3-3 in sente, it can be a good choice. What's your count?
Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 4:22 am
by Mnemonic
@EdLee
I guess you’re right. My count says black is leading by roughly 35 points after the corner invasion but I didn't count the resulting moyo of white. I feel that this moyo is white’s last chance. If white gets the corner and black takes the side black has probably won. (Even if his side is smaller than whites corner because whites influence has gone to waste) With this sequence I feel white still has a small chance.
Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 5:10 am
by robinz
$$Bcm75 prisoner count B - 0 W - 0 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+
[go]$$Bcm75 prisoner count B - 0 W - 0 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Not much choice here. Note that if white subsequently double hanes (which is clearly better for white than normal because of the 7-3 stone), I think I can get something out of this variation:
$$Bcm75 prisoner count B - 0 W - 0 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . 3 2 5 . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+
[go]$$Bcm75 prisoner count B - 0 W - 0 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . 3 2 5 . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
After the fate of this invasion becomes clear, I think we'll then be basically in the endgame (One of the things I dislike about go is how much of the game seems to be endgame, and I gather this becomes more and more true as one gets stronger.) I'll do a count then, but my preliminary counts seem to indicate that I'll be about 10-15 points behind in definite territory, so I think I'm going to have to play pretty aggressively.
@Mnemonic: sorry we were moving too fast for you to start with. I was a bit surprised at how quickly things were going myself! Hope you're not wincing too much at my terrible moves
Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 5:14 am
by EdLee
Mnemonic,
In your second variation ( changed to a tiger's mouth)... suppose tenuki -- instead of W(a) -- then B(a) seems sente; and did you consider the B(b-c-d) push-and-cut (and the resulting count)? Also, how do you feel about W's two walls facing each other, and the effect of the thickness on the (e) areas?
$$W tenuki $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O # # . # # # . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . # O # . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . # . # . . . . . c b X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . d O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . O O . . . . e . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . X O X a . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | 2 . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . 1 . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+
[go]$$W tenuki $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O # # . # # # . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . # O # . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . # . # . . . . . c b X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . d O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . O O . . . . e . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . X O X a . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | 2 . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . 1 . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 6:17 am
by Mnemonic
@EdLee
In your second variation ( changed to a tiger's mouth)... suppose tenuki -- instead of W(a) -- then B(a) seems sente;
That's why I played the solid connection in my variation But apparently white is not as thick as I thought (didn't think about your b-c-d variation, that just seems evil) And black is very strong up above (although I think e is a bit deep if you just play it without fist either a or b-c-d) White really does seem on his last leg I wonder what robinz is counting?
So my question to you: If you see you win the game by invading at the 33 is it the right option because it is safer/less complicated than other moves like my 5-2? Or is blacks move just “good enough” in this game but not optimal (not saying my move is).
Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 6:45 am
by 1986
$$Wcm76 Prisoner Count B - 0 W - 0 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+
[go]$$Bcm77 Prisoner Count B - 0 W - 0 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
As expected. I really hope I manage not to die here. *looks around nervously, and makes note to look up the 3-3 invasion in this situation after the game*
Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 8:09 am
by 1986
$$Wcm78 Prisoner Count B - 0 W - 0 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+
[go]$$Bcm79 Prisoner Count B - 0 W - 0 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . X O 1 . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
So it is the double hane. I really hope this works... (my reading suggests that it does, but there are a lot of variations here, so the probability of me having missed something is probably quite close to 1 )
Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 10:09 am
by Banaan
for observers:
Why the double hane? if I was white, i'd just extend. the corner doesnt get that much larger, and there's no cutting stone. The cutting stone looks awesome for b
Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 8:02 pm
by 1986
$$Wcm80 Prisoner Count B - 0 W - 0 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+
[go]$$Bcm81 Prisoner Count B - 0 W - 0 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Here we go then. I think I get quite a good result here if black fights too much and tries too hard to kill the corner - but if he just plays solidly and defends on the outside I will have to come back and live in gote. (Which, at this fairly late stage of the game, I'm prepared to take.) But let's see
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 1:42 am
by EdLee
Mnemonic,
Mnemonic wrote:I think e is a bit deep
(e) was not a point; it was the general area, thus "(e) areas".
Mnemonic wrote:If you see you win the game by invading at the 33
Yes, it'd be a very good candidate, unless I can find something else vastly superior to "winning".
Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 9:04 pm
by 1986
$$Wcm82 Prisoner Count B - 0 W - 0 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . 1 . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+
(One of the things I dislike about go is how much of the game seems to be endgame, and I gather this becomes more and more true as one gets stronger.) I'll do a count then, but my preliminary counts seem to indicate that I'll be about 10-15 points behind in definite territory, so I think I'm going to have to play pretty aggressively.
changed to a tiger's mouth)...
tenuki -- instead of W(a) -- then B(a) seems sente;
thickness on the (e) areas?
But apparently white is not as thick as I thought (didn't think about your b-c-d variation, that just seems evil) And black is very strong up above (although I think e is a bit deep if you just play it without fist either a or b-c-d) 
)
