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126. EdLee vs Loons

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=4026

Page 8 of 17

Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:26 pm
by EdLee
More notes for :w46: before Loons ninja'd :b47::

Since I thought :b47: connect was not a good choice (see Post #98),
I had to read the ko. I thought B would immediately play
the local threat of :b4:; I had no threat so I would connect:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :w5: connects at :bc:
$$------------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X 2 O X O . . . |
$$ . . . . O . 4 O B 3 X O . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . 1 X X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
The broken shape with :b6: cannot be helped,
but (a) and (b) seem to be miai for W:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm6 Prisoners: :w1: :b1:
$$------------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X X O X O b . . |
$$ . . . . O . X O O O X O . . |
$$ . . . . . O 1 . O X X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . a . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:36 pm
by EdLee
Still more notes for :w46: before the :b47: post:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :w5: connects at :bc:
$$------------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . O X O . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O B 3 X O . . |
$$ . . . . . O . 4 1 X X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 2 . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm6 Prisoners: :w1: :b1:
$$------------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . O X O 4 . . |
$$ . . . . O . 1 O O O X O . . |
$$ . . . . . O 2 X O X X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 3 X . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
But all these and other crazy variations starting with the ko are moot now that :b47: connected.

Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:59 pm
by EdLee
Yet more notes for :w46: before the :b47: post.
If I connected with :w1: instead of :w46: atari,
B looks unstoppable (on top of the broken shape),
so :w46: atari seemed forced, too?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$------------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X 1 O X O . . . |
$$ . . . . O . 2 O X . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . O 4 3 . X X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:13 pm
by EdLee
OK, back to the current board.
Locally, one nice thing about this result for W is B cannot come out this way:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$--------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ . . . . X W O X O . . . |
$$ . . O . 1 O X X X O . . |
$$ . . . @ 2 . O X X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
In the other variations: with the ko, or if :wc: connect directly instead of :w46: atari,
the :b1: group could push out with a broken shape for W (see last few posts) --
but this cannot happen now. Also, the :ws:-kosumi group seems to be working with
the :wc: group, partially at least. As yet, I'm not sure what to make of B's dumpling shape.

Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:04 pm
by EdLee
(For beginners, too.) Locally, B has a broken shape -- the :bc: stone is hurt:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$--------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ . . . . B @ O X O . . . |
$$ . . O . . @ Y X X O . . |
$$ . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Re: 126. EdLee vs Loons

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:24 pm
by Loons
Trying to use an SGF, probably unsuccessfully.
[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[EdLee]PB[Loons]AW[nb][mc][nc][pc][cd][dd][jd][md][qd][ke][ne][df][ef][qh][cn][qn][ro][dp][rp][cq][mq][qq][or]AB[jb][ob][lc][oc][nd][od][pd][ce][oe][pe][qe][cf][pf][dg][cj][ql][pn][rn][qo][np][pp][fq][iq][dr]LB[fc:D][gc:C][hc:B][ic:A][id:E][nf:G][oi:F]
(;B[ic]C[Too slow.]
;W[gc]
;B[hd]
;W[hf]C[It seems to me that this fight is not great.])
(;B[hc]C[When I initially looked at this, I quite liked it, but then less and less and less.]
;W[fc]
(;B[he]
;W[eg]
;B[dh]
;W[ig])
(;B[fb]
;W[eb]
;B[gc]
;W[fd]
;B[he]))
(;B[gc]C[The first move I considered. I'm sure there's a proverb that says "Settle second line stones with the large knight's move"]
(;W[ic]
(;B[ib]
;W[hc]
;B[hb]
;W[fb]C[I think I've mentioned this technique before.]
;B[gb]C[I feel uncomfortable.])
(;B[gf]
;W[eg]
;B[dh]
;W[fd]
;B[gd]C[Trying to be light seems a little promising.]))
(;W[ec]
;B[gf]
;W[eg]
;B[dh]))
(;B[fc]C[Trying to poke at white's cut, again trying to be light.

Given that I'm reducing a large moyo, treating K18 lightly like this seems promising, but it may be that I just don't know the refutation of my own strange move.]
(;W[gb]
;B[gc]
;W[hc]
;B[hd]
;W[ic]
;B[fe])
(;W[hc]
;B[hb]C[Dunno.])
(;W[ec]
;B[fd]))
(;B[id]C[Contact?]
(;W[ic]
;B[jc]
;W[hc])
(;W[ie]
;B[hd]
;W[fc]C[Not alive, not clearly out.]))
(;B[oi]C[If I play this...]
;W[gd]C[And white secures his own moyo (assuming this leaves K18 with little aji), am I happy? Do I have to respond to R12 again? Do I have sente?])
(;B[nf]C[This play is sort of at the border of Ed & I's positions. The trouble with evaluating this, it's very similar to asking "How much of what kind of aji do M17 and K18 have if I don't play from them directly?" Which is not an easy question.]
;W[ic]
(;B[ib]
;W[gc]
;B[ld]
(;W[le]
;B[me]
;W[lb]
;B[na]
;W[mb]
;B[kc]
;W[kb]
;B[jc]
;W[hb]C[It seems that if white is not careful (or rather, foolish) I can make a large capture.])
(;W[me]
;B[le]
;W[mf]
;B[lf]
;W[mg]C[Ouch for everyone.]))
(;B[ld]
;W[le]
;B[me]
;W[lb]
;B[na]
;W[mb]
;B[kc]
;W[kb]
;B[jc]
;W[ib])))[/sgf-full]

Nothing other than copying the sgf as text ever seems to work for me.

Anyway.
The SGF is a snapshot of my general thoughts after I asked my brain to churn out a move, so whatever it thought looked natural to try at the time is what's there. No guarantees.

What I am confident of is that Ed has successfully worked out my next move, whatever it turns out to be (with five posts...).


PS: I am not happy at all with my current SGF editors. Cgoban feels friendly but cannot delete or move branches. Drago can edit branches but is somehow harder to use. Neither editor has an obvious "Make this the starting position of the sgf" button. Disclaimer: My drago might be outdated. Any endorsements ?

Re: 126. EdLee vs Loons

Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:56 am
by lefuet
Loons wrote:
PS: I am not happy at all with my current SGF editors. Cgoban feels friendly but cannot delete or move branches.

Cgoban can cut branches (tools menu top left). It can also shift them up or down (though not to another move number, I'm afraid)

edit: Laman is correct, you can also paste the branch at other move numbers. ..

Re: 126. EdLee vs Loons

Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:02 am
by Laman
Loons wrote:PS: I am not happy at all with my current SGF editors. Cgoban feels friendly but cannot delete or move branches. Drago can edit branches but is somehow harder to use. Neither editor has an obvious "Make this the starting position of the sgf" button. Disclaimer: My drago might be outdated. Any endorsements ?

i think CGoban 3 can easily both delete and move branches. i don't use the English version, but there should be something like 'Tool' on the upper left of the window and there you can choose 'cut' and 'insert' (cut the branch, insert the last cut branch)


PS:
Loons wrote:Will you mind if I switch to using coordinates on the game board ?

i am happy about you switching to board with coordinates, especially when both you and spectators often refer to moves by their coordinates

Re: 126. EdLee vs Loons

Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:50 am
by Loons
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49 Prisoners: :w1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Well, in my reckoning - which may well be wildly incorrect - the two space jump upwards is better from this stone than its neighbors, and I think splitting Ed's moyo is the biggest thing on the board.


@Laman: Oh my gosh, how did I not notice those tools getting added! Also yeah, I noticed I was doing that :P.

Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:13 am
by EdLee
Ever since :bc: I've been expecting something like :b1:, so :b49: is not a big surprise. :study:...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . B . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |[/go]

Blake lost home to a fire

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:18 pm
by EdLee
My friends Blake and his wife lost their home to a fire last Friday July 8, 2011:

http://www.edhat.com/site/tidbit.cfm?nid=60607

Blake was the first Go person I met and played in real life and his set was the first real Go set I saw.
It was a Samarkand set -- Korean 8mm glass stones, Japanese folding board -- I remember the first game
he gave me something like 9+4 or 9+5 handicap stones and he still won by 30~40 points. :oops:
I went over to see Blake and Michelle yesterday. The glass stones were melted by the fire, the bowls and board destroyed.
They lost practically everything (they were renting; they had been living there since 1994 -- 17 years).

The past few years, Blake had been working on a 300+ page novel with a Go theme.
He had just finished writing a section about a Go board being burnt in a fire,
he uploaded his novel online and 7 hours later the fire destroyed 5 homes.
He is keeping the burnt board to tell this story.

After the tsunami and this fire, it's quite an experience
simply to come back to a home, to have dinner, to sleep in a bed.

In his amazing spirit, Blake still plans to go to US Go Congress in a few weeks.

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:02 pm
by EdLee
Back to the game... :batman:
Letting B get a ponnuki, even in gote, seems not a good idea...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 1 X 5 . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . 2 3 . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . 7 . O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:18 pm
by EdLee
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm50 Prisoners: :w1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . 1 . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
This kosumi seems a local vital point of sorts, and it looks simple (and good? -- we'll find out).
See previous post about a variation with a B ponnuki.

Re: 126. EdLee vs Loons

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:40 pm
by Loons
Sorry to hear about your friends' home. Spooky about the novel.

I should really have looked a little closer at my own predicted moves. That stone has bad trouble running upwards, following either sequence I gave :P.

My cold feet diagram:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: :w1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . O . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . W B . . O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . 1 . 7 . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 X 2 . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
I really don't want to tenuki :w52: (as an aside, what is the normal response to :w52: ?) after which I'm struggling behind enemy lines (I think I overlooked this shoulder-hit, before). White does need to be careful answering :b57: , but I think he can.

My new investigations:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: :w1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . X . O . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . c . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

It's demoralising to misread... But try, try again...
'a' threatens to start living pretty fast, white must be concerned about his cut
'b' aims at still being able to get some sort of result from top afterwards. (Seems hard)
'c' prompts white to play a potentially complicated cut. I could sacrifice something and keep claiming I am being light!

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:21 pm
by EdLee
Loons, thank you. Yes, strange about the novel. :-|
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