Life In 19x19

Josh Hatch wrote:I think with all the various options on the internet the only real obstacles would production and promotion. It could make quite a compelling story for a reality show or a documentary (Hikaru no Go was good but it doesn't have mainstream appeal). There would be more at stake for the players than on a lot of reality shows and game shows. Of course actually establishing a pro system in the West has to come first.

I don't want a Go Brother or Go Factor. Really, you guys are too focused on mainstream TV shows. How about the way sudoku got popular or how backgammon is popular in some countries? I mean, we will wait long if we are waiting for a white raven (aka Bobby Fischer) to come along.

No. I'd be thinking something like the way they broadcast games in Asia but with just the key points of the games shown/explained and more focus on the players. I don't think many people that aren't Go players would want to watch entire games but they might still find the players and the competition interesting.

I've never watched Big Brother or the X Factor but millions of people do. If there was a show that focused on Go and got millions of people watching every week that would be great for promoting the game. This obviously wouldn't be a high priority right now and I wouldn't expect the AGA to fund it or create it but to give some support by having pros (once a professional system is established) comment on the games.

It's just an idea for another way to promote the game.

tapir wrote: I mean, we will wait long if we are waiting for a white raven (aka Bobby Fischer) to come along.

We'll just have to wait and see how high Leyleth will fly as our potential white raven

tapir wrote: I mean, we will wait long if we are waiting for a white raven (aka Bobby Fischer) to come along.

We'll just have to wait and see how high Leyleth will fly as our potential white raven

Josh Hatch wrote:I've never watched Big Brother or the X Factor but millions of people do.

I have watched Big Brother only when there was a go player in there.

(hi everyone!)

Another comparison occurs to me that makes me wonder if a broad enough player base is enough to make a professional league successful:

Professional Starcraft.

Consider the advantages it already has:
- most people have heard of it.
- its player base numbers in the millions.
- English commented professional games number viewers in the hundreds of thousands.
- American college level leagues involve more than two hundred schools.
- American professional leagues such as MLG have budgets in the millions.

And despite all of this, what does a skilled western player do? They move to South Korea when they're eighteen and try to make it there.

What does South Korea have that other countries don't? I think they obvious answer is the correct one - it's endorsed by their government. It needs certification. Match-fixing results in jail time. Branches of the military have their own teams. The government has told players and their parents and teachers and counsellors that Starcraft is a worthwhile thing to spend their lives pursuing.

So I guess what I'm saying is, that in addition to everything everyone has mentioned prior, Go is also going to need a significant Western moral authority to endorse it as a way of life. Pity we don't have an Emperor around we can convert .

I was talking to an AGA board member yesterday, and he said that he will be flying to Korea and signing a deal in about two weeks.

Currently, I think initiating such a system in any non-Asian country, i.e. America, is a huge mistake. I can think of infinite arguments against such a venture and very few pro arguments. For one, much-discussed financial issue is a big problem. For all games/sports, ultimately all money lies in the consumers. Companies sponsor tournaments because consumers watch them, etc. Simply, the viability a professional system in the US is not viable because there is not enough people interested in go for companies to have incentive to sponsor the professionals. Furthermore, we need some professionals in the first place, and it seems like the AGA is more interested in developing young players rather than the old. No youth in America or Europe are at the 1p level in China or Japan. Again, strength is built upon a large pool of go players, and with the current state of Go popularity, there isn't enough talent for non-Asian countries to develop professionals. Lastly, we need to consider the youths themselves. Obviously, they have to consider whether becoming a pro is better than say, going to an university and becoming the engineer. Here, we have no guarantee that the latter is worse than the former, indeed, currently the latter is far superior to the former financially at least. Thanks to the Hikaru cartoons, we have quite a few kids dreaming of becoming professional but it is, frankly, a far-fetched dream in the status quo. For myself, it is very likely I would not choose to become a pro given the opportunity in lieu of the other alternatives.

Therefore, the establishment of a viable and successful professional system in America and in Europe depends on the general popularity of the game. I believe the AGA and EGF should abandon such a venture and divert their efforts, and funds, towards building up the foundation for a brighter, more successful, future.

EDIT: I think one point I want to emphasize is whether people want to become pros in the first place. If there's a better, more lucrative job elsewhere, there's little reason to become pro.

Rambling wrote:(hi everyone!)

Another comparison occurs to me that makes me wonder if a broad enough player base is enough to make a professional league successful:

Professional Starcraft.

Consider the advantages it already has:
- most people have heard of it.
- its player base numbers in the millions.
- English commented professional games number viewers in the hundreds of thousands.
- American college level leagues involve more than two hundred schools.
- American professional leagues such as MLG have budgets in the millions.

And despite all of this, what does a skilled western player do? They move to South Korea when they're eighteen and try to make it there.

What does South Korea have that other countries don't? I think they obvious answer is the correct one - it's endorsed by their government. It needs certification. Match-fixing results in jail time. Branches of the military have their own teams. The government has told players and their parents and teachers and counsellors that Starcraft is a worthwhile thing to spend their lives pursuing.

So I guess what I'm saying is, that in addition to everything everyone has mentioned prior, Go is also going to need a significant Western moral authority to endorse it as a way of life. Pity we don't have an Emperor around we can convert .

I certainly agree, but the main idea we can draw from this is that any "sport" (in a loose sense) depends on its fanbase. The Starcraft scene in America is still far smaller than Starcraft in Korea and that's the overarching reason why Korea is still recognized by far as the #1.

This is sounding more and more definite. I'm excited to see what happens, hopefully it will turn out well.

From: usgo.org
Full details of the pro system have not been worked out but the intention is to start the new system in 2012, and have the first pro certification tournament before the 2012 Go Congress. Efforts will be made to give newly selected pros high-quality training; a central idea is that the AGA will find sponsors and create new pro tournaments; current long-running tournaments like the US Open and Ing Masters will not be changed. Myung Wan Kim and Andy Okun have both been working hard on this proposal.

[quote="Rambling]What does South Korea have that other countries don't? I think they obvious answer is the correct one - it's endorsed by their government. It needs certification. Match-fixing results in jail time. Branches of the military have their own teams. The government has told players and their parents and teachers and counsellors that Starcraft is a worthwhile thing to spend their lives pursuing.
[/quote]

I checked out what made South Korea generate the Starcraft phenomenon. What they had was a fluke: the Asian currency crisis at exactly the right time. Lots of young, unemployed men were spending times in computer cafes getting their resumes together. After that job was done they spent a few (then many) more hours playing Starcraft. Without that cohort of players the game would have lacked the critical mass required to push it to the level it is now.

Makes you wonder what might happen to go in North America if the economy tanks even more.

pwaldron wrote:I checked out what made South Korea generate the Starcraft phenomenon. What they had was a fluke: the Asian currency crisis at exactly the right time. Lots of young, unemployed men were spending times in computer cafes getting their resumes together. After that job was done they spent a few (then many) more hours playing Starcraft. Without that cohort of players the game would have lacked the critical mass required to push it to the level it is now.

If I recall I've also heard a big factor was that South Korea had an abnormally high level of high-speed connectivity in its population centers.

pwaldron wrote:Lots of young, unemployed men were spending times in computer cafes getting their resumes together. After that job was done they spent a few (then many) more hours playing Starcraft. Without that cohort of players the game would have lacked the critical mass required to push it to the level it is now.

So perhaps what we need to do is to convince some charity that go-salons will keep disaffected youths off the streets?

pwaldron wrote:Makes you wonder what might happen to go in North America if the economy tanks even more.

Never thought someone would give me a reason to look forward to a collapse

Rambling wrote:

pwaldron wrote:Makes you wonder what might happen to go in North America if the economy tanks even more.

Never thought someone would give me a reason to look forward to a collapse

I propose an AGA Standing Committee for heightening the contradictions.

I was away for the last week but when I checked my e-mail today I saw the latest e-journal including an article about the deal to create a pro system with the Korean's help. This is another step forward so I thought I'd post it in this thread for those who haven't seen it.

I'm interested in hearing more about the qualification tournament now as organizing it and selecting the first pro (pros?) seems like the next step. Are the pro qualification tournaments in Asia broadcast online as Tygem is planning to do for the U.S. tournament? I'm also curious if the tournament will be online or face to face, or maybe the preliminaries will be online but the rest will be face to face? I'd also like to know what the eligibility conditions will be.