Kirby's Study Journal

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:12 am

For all the talk of AI's recommending wacky moves that are hard to use (which is sometimes true), in this case the 3-3 after the pincer is a really boring/classic/normal human move, and one that stood out to me before reviewing it with LZ to confirm it agreed it was better.

Yeah, I get it. My only point is that for go to be interesting to me, I need to have a story behind the moves that I play. And that story can't be "LZ has good win percentage". If that's my only story behind what I play, why bother playing go? I'll just let LZ play.

I found a new interest in go again, but it's based on me playing MY best based on MY understanding. I'm happy to try to learn from LZ or Elf or whatever, but I need my own identity for the game to have value to me.

So I'm happy to get tips from lZ, etc, and try them out. But I've gotta have at least some understanding of the reason behind my moves. Otherwise, it's pointless to me.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:30 am

Played another game today. Still having trouble getting a game on KGS, so I went to OGS. I guess rank doesn't matter as much there, because I was challenged by a 9k. Anyway, here is the game:

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:32 am

Position 1:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Moves 22 to 22 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . 3 . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I opted for this variation in the game. I'm not sure if it's the best or not. I couldn't find something exactly satisfactory.

Maybe just defending would be better, in retrospect:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Moves 22 to 22 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . 1 . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:35 am

Also not sure about this position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Moves 25 to 25 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I thought of a few different options, but none of them seemed that good to me:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Moves 25 to 25 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Moves 25 to 25 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Moves 25 to 25 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 3 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I figured that it would be good to separate black, but I tried to do so in a way that minimized profit for black.

Anyway, the move in the game is the best that I could think of.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:37 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Moves 30 to 30 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Is it too aggressive?

Maybe it's easier to just defend my group:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Moves 30 to 30 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, I feel the exchange benefits black more than me?

Not sure.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:39 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Moves 38 to 38 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Perhaps it's an overplay:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Moves 38 to 38 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . C C X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X 5 O X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 8 3 2 O 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I thought about a sequence like this, but I didn't realize how few liberties I had. Maybe this would be better:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Moves 38 to 38 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Just slow and steady.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:40 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Moves 50 to 50 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . O X X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't usually make this kind of move. Honestly, I wanted to play here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Moves 50 to 50 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . 1 . . . . O X X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But I felt OK with the balance of the game, and I thought doing this kind of aggressive strategy might make me have two weak groups.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:41 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Moves 52 to 52 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . O X X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Maybe this is an overplay. I imagined this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Moves 52 to 52 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 1 X 7 . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . O X X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Not sure if it's the best sequence for me, though.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:09 pm

Hi Kirby,
How do you feel about the solid connect

(or tiger mouths),
and do you have access to a super-human bot to eval this position ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Moves 25 to 25 $$ ---------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 3 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 4 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:47 pm

I kind of like that variation, looking at it now. In the game I felt bad about allowing connection, but it seems to give good center influence.

Haven't looked at it with a bit yet.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:43 pm

Again, OGS.

Really screwed up a lot this game, and his center lived. But I was way ahead, so it didn't change the result. Nonetheless, major screw up.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:16 pm

Biggest mistake I want to highlight from this game is this move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . X . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O O X O . X X O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . X X O O X O . X O O O . O O X X X . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X O . X . O X O O X . | $$ | . . O X . O O O O X X . . O X . . O . | $$ | . . O . X O X . O . . O O X X . O . . | $$ | . . . O X X X . O . . O X X O O O . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . O . . X X X X . O . . | $$ | . . . O O X O . O . . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . X X X O X X X O . . X O O . | $$ | . . . O O O X . X O O X O . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . X X O X . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O X X O X . . O O X X O O X . . | $$ | . O O X X . O . . . O . O O X . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . O O O O . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . O X . W X X O X O O . . O X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . X X X O X . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This was too greedy. I should connect the stones:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . X . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O O X O . X X O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . X X O O X O . X O O O . O O X X X . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X O . X . O X O O X . | $$ | . . O X . O O O O X X . . O X . . O . | $$ | . . O . X O X . O . . O O X X . O . . | $$ | . . . O X X X . O . W O X X O O O . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . O . . X X X X . O . . | $$ | . . . O O X O . O . . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . X X X O X X X O . . X O O . | $$ | . . . O O O X . X O O X O . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . X X O X . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O X X O X . . O O X X O O X . . | $$ | . O O X X . O . . . O . O O X . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . O O O O . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X X O X O O . . O X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . X X X O X . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Then, white seems to have nothing.

I didn't have much challenge in this game, but nonetheless, this was a big mistake.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:03 pm

For kicks, I decided to analyze my game against that honeybear guy with LeelaZero.

My computer doesn't have significant processing power, so I focused on the moves that seemed to be a somewhat significant difference in winrate.

The first move that seemed like a big difference to me was when I took the 3-3 point here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . W . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

LeelaZero seems to like playing here, at least on my computer:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X . W . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm against considering this suggestion to be a better move based on winrate only, so let's take the hypothesis that this is a better move, and think about why.

1. First of all, it puts significant pressure on the black stones. The black stones may live with the 3-3 point, but it threatens to seal black in:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So black probably wouldn't take the 3-3 immediately.

Presumably, black would push and solidify white's position on the left:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . C . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The 3-3 point remains open as a big point for either player.

So effectively, after black's slide, I'm faced with a decision to:
a.) Take the big point move of the 3-3 to secure territory - I probably made some profit from the exchange; OR
b.) Utilize black's weakness to fix my own weakness on the left side, and secure points there.

Given that there's an invasion point that black later exploited, this seems reasonable.

Next interesting position is here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O W . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I was afraid of extending here, because of black's cut:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X b O X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . 2 1 O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Seemed that 'a' and 'b' were miai.

But LZ points out that it might not be so bad to lose the corner. For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X 4 O X 9 . | $$ | . . . . . X . . b . . . 8 6 2 1 O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 7 5 3 . a . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

When black gets the corner with 'a', white can extend to 'b and gets a pretty decent position on the bottom.

Is that bigger than the corner? Black gets at least 10 points. But white settled the group in the black area, effectively destroying the moyo down there...

I think I'll buy it.

I'll takeaway two lessons from this:
1.) Keeping pressure on the opponent to seal him/her in is valuable - more than a big point move, sometimes.
2.) I don't necessarily need to be afraid of a variation that loses stones, even if it seems like a lot of points (e.g. the corner territory), if I achieve a bigger goal. In this case, living easily on the bottom in the middle of black's area is a very reasonable result.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:25 pm

Hi Kirby,

somewhat significant difference in winrate.

Turns out the somewhat significance may matter. A lot.
I seem to recall all the AZ-class bots eval

at ~55% and

at ~45% before

(7.5 komi, area scoring)... that's a 10% gap before

.
So a difference of 5 to even 10% may not be big enough for humans (but good to explore and study, of course). If it's more than 30% drop in winrate between two candidates, of course it's very significant. In your current computing power, where's your border for significant ? ( 20%+ ? )

when I took the 3-3 point here:
$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . W . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

...and

is at 3-2, near 3-3.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:29 pm

I don't have a scientific strategy for choosing "significantly different".

It's more like "LZ seems to be playing a move here that didn't align with my idea of what was correct, and it seems to make a spike in the graph"...

Ad hoc, I'll admit

Life In 19x19

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