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Kirby's Study Journal

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=8493

Page 78 of 128

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:11 am
by Kirby
I played another game on OGS this morning. I like KGS a little bit better, but I can't get a game since I'm a '?' player there. I set automatch for awhile, but didn't get an opponent. I could always play a bot, but that didn't seem as fun as playing a human on OGS.

So I played on OGS, but my opponent wasn't interested in waiting for me to think, it seems.

So here's the (brief) game record.



Not much to say about it.

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:05 am
by Kirby
Finally got a game on KGS, thanks to automatch.

2-stone game against 3k. I lost. I'm not too down about it - making a comeback, and trying to study go, now.

Here's the game:


Later, I'll take a deeper look, but it's time for work, now.

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:06 am
by Kirby
Particularly bad moves are:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X O . X O . O O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O O . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X O . . X . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | W X X O O O X O . O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
and
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O . X O . O O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O O O O . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X W X O . . X . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | X X X X . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O O X O . O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | O O O . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:40 pm
by Kirby
A game against 4k - I gave 3 stone handicap, because KGS is still establishing my rank.

I was dominated in the beginning, but somehow got lucky. I think it's because he was aggressive in an area where I was strong. We both made many mistakes.



No time to review right now.

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:44 pm
by Kirby
Went to Ann Arbor Go Club for the first time in a long time. I was a regular about 10 years ago.

I played three games. First two were against a guy named Don, who I've played many times before. I beat him at 3 and 4 stone handicap.

The last was against a guy that said he gave Don 4 stones, so I played him evenly. But I felt he was similar strength to Don when I played him (just a different style). Maybe he has an anti-Don style or something.

Anyway, here is the SGF:

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:45 pm
by Kirby
I won't pick apart the game too much, but my biggest insight from playing against two weaker players today was this:

Be satisfied with a good result. If I can read out a clear sequence that is definitely a good result for me, take it over an unclear path that may or may not lead to a superior result.

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:59 pm
by EdLee
If I can read out a clear sequence that is definitely a good result for me, take it over an unclear path that may or may not lead to a superior result.
Like a bot. :)

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:20 pm
by Kirby
I was thinking more like how pros talked when they show variations in joseki (this position is favorable for black or white or whatever).

I'm still not super interested nor inspired by bots, but if the analogy works for you, why not?

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:26 pm
by Bill Spight
Kirby wrote:I was thinking more like how pros talked when they show variations in joseki (this position is favorable for black or white or whatever).

I'm still not super interested nor inspired by bots, but if the analogy works for you, why not?
Take a look at my recent posts on "Questions about a game", starting here. viewtopic.php?p=234439#p234439 . Maybe you'll be inspired. ;)

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:55 am
by Uberdude
Kirby wrote: The first move that seemed like a big difference to me was when I took the 3-3 point here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
LeelaZero seems to like playing here, at least on my computer:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . W . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'm against considering this suggestion to be a better move based on winrate only, so let's take the hypothesis that this is a better move, and think about why.

1. First of all, it puts significant pressure on the black stones. The black stones may live with the 3-3 point, but it threatens to seal black in:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So black probably wouldn't take the 3-3 immediately.

<snip>
Kirby, are you sure you are not a computer? You just suffered from one of their classic bugs, an off-by-one error! ;-) Your reasoning about the value of the kosumi in the corner would make lots more sense if it was indeed a 4-4 corner with a pincer and slide, as then the 3-3 is indeed a comfortable base for both players. Black playing the slide is pretty unusual with a 3-4 point (because unlike with 4-4 there is no big follow-up at 3-3) so that's probably part of why you got confused into thinking the edge of the board was where it wasn't.

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:07 am
by Kirby
I feel like I'm being peer pressured into using a drug or something :-p

I use LeelaZero already for game analysis. So I'm not 100% against computers. I'm a professional software engineer, by trade, after all. I suppose that requires more programming than anything else, though, so for my job, I usually get to tell computers what to do more than the other way around :-)

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:43 am
by Kirby
Another game on KGS. I gave 2 stones to 3k.

Here's the game record:

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:46 am
by Kirby
Learning points from this game are not to take unnecessary risk. Here are a few examples where I may have been unnecessarily risky.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X O X X . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O X X W . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . |
$$ | . O O O . . O . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X O . . O . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . X . X O O . O . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'm aiming at the cut above, but maybe if I just get out with my group, it's enough.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X O X X . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X X X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O X X O . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X C X X O X X O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W X . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . |
$$ | . O O O . . O . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X O . . O . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . X . X O O . O . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The one above is probably OK, but I could avoid risk of something weird happening by just playing at the marked spot. Maybe I like the in game move better, though, I suppose.

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:05 am
by Uberdude
Indeed Kirby, this is a classic example of where falling back can reduce your cuts:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Two cuts
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X O X X . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O X X 1 b . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . O 2 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . 3 O a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . |
$$ | . O O O . . O . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X O . . O . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . X . X O O . O . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W One* cut.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X O X X . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X X b . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O a . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O X X 2 3 . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . c O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . |
$$ | . O O O . . O . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X O . . O . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . X . X O O . O . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
In the 2nd diagram if black does cut you can just atari on the outside and sacrifice; it's true that you didn't force black to grovelling connect at b but he's still pretty inefficient.

And if black doesn't push and cut then next you are aiming at defending the peeping stone in good shape and force the grovel connection whilst pressing on the outside.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Grovel please
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X O X X . 5 . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X X 4 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . 3 . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . |
$$ | . O O O . . O . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X O . . O . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . X . X O O . O . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
* actually there could be 2 or 3 by black cutting across the knight's move at c. But also black's 2-space jump below is thin so it's complicated. Maybe white should attach there before kosumi.

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:53 pm
by Kirby
Very nice! I didn't see the move in the game, but I like it! The shape is solid, and it seems much better.

In general, I have a hard time seeing moves where you "fall back", but in this case, it definitely seems stronger.
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Page 78 of 128

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