Life In 19x19

oca wrote:

EdLee wrote:

oca wrote:Next game I will try the "Zero bad shape game"
I will ask myself on every move if that make a bad shape or not and see if I can avoid all of them...

Good exercise.

Here is my try, the game went really fine for me, I think there is no bad shape, but I got cut a few times...

While there are some issues that deeper reading might fix, this is something that comes with time and practice, and it looks like you did a good job accomplishing your goal. One other recommendation to think about is that forcing your opponent into bad shape, or preventing them from having good shape, is also quite valuable. As an example, at black can atari first, causing white to form an empty triangle at C16. You can then pick which of the stones is more valuable to connect, based on whether the outside or the side is more valuable. The other stone will have already done its work by forcing white into poorer shape, and capturing the one stone will be quite slow for white if it can be done outright.

Hi skydyr, thx for yours comments, I did not atari at 11 because I was fearing losing my stone... But you are right, that is not that important has it has allready completed is job !

oca wrote:Here is my try, the game went really fine for me, I think there is no bad shape,

Hi oca,

Missing a vital point, such as:

atari E14 first. This is a standard shape, good to learn it:
After your hane, you can think miai of E14 (W nobi, or B atari) and C15 (W tiger's mouth, or B pushes).

• If nobi E14, then pushes C15.
• If tiger's mouth C15 (in the real game), then you atari E14.

Your connects lets W get BOTH miai points: E14 and C15. Very good for W.
After your atari E14 and connects D15, then you decide which cut to fix.
Remember this sequence.

W gets BOTH miai points: E14 and C15. You missed both vital points.

Pushing from behind, such as:
if simply extends F14, your is "pushing from behind." Bad exchange for B.

missed the vital point F14.

good. Vital point. "Hane head of 2 (enemy stones)". You must have first read out the cut F13.

did you consider or read the double hane G15 ?

missed a huge vital point: ponnuki F12 !

funny shape -- what's this ?? Very close to a pass.

exact same mistake as . You're lucky the same shape happens twice in this game. See .

exact same mistake as .

May have identified , , , are part of your bad habits.

missed the vital point G4. First, G4 in sente, then you can jump ahead to J3 next, instead of the slow push H3 .

EdLee wrote:

oca wrote:Here is my try, the game went really fine for me, I think there is no bad shape,

Hi oca,

Missing a vital point, such as:

atari E14 first. This is a standard shape, good to learn it:
After your hane, you can think miai of E14 (W nobi, or B atari) and C15 (W tiger's mouth, or B pushes).

• If nobi E14， then pushes C15.
• If tiger's mouth C15 (in the real game), then you atari E14.

Your connects lets W get BOTH miai points: E14 and C15. Very good for W.
After your atari E14 and connects D15, then you decide which cut to fix.
Remember this sequence.

W gets BOTH miai points: E14 and C15. You missed both vital points.

Hi Edlee, Thank you, I will remember this one !

EdLee wrote: Pushing from behind, such as:
if simply extends F14, your is "pushing from behind." Bad exchange for B.

ok, I was thinking that was an influence point that both black and white wanted to have ... but no, you are right, even if I get it, I'm still somehow behind...

EdLee wrote: good. Vital point. "Hane head of 2 (enemy stones)". You must have first read out the cut F13.

I didn't fully read out the cut, but I had a plan if he cut ( a turning ladder)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm16
$$ +-------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O X . . .
$$ | . . X X X 1 2 . .
$$ | . . . . . 3 4 . .
$$ | . . . . . 5 9 0 .
$$ | . . . X . 7 6 . .
$$ | . . . . . 8 . . .[/go]

EdLee wrote: did you consider or read the double hane G15 ?

yes, but during the game, my reading told me that was to risky, but now I tryed again with a goban and I think that would be working very well !

EdLee wrote: missed a huge vital point: ponnuki F12 !

I considered that ponnuki but my readind told me that I can catch the stone if it try to escape, so I didn't take that stone. but that was maybe a bit too risky...

EdLee wrote: funny shape -- what's this ?? Very close to a pass.

hmmm, That's the "L shape in the center" , I just feared the cut, I can hardly say that my second choice was the sanrensei and that I choosed this one...

EdLee wrote: exact same mistake as . You're lucky the same shape happens twice in this game. See .

exact same mistake as .

May have identified , , , are part of your bad habits.

Sure, I will try to fix that in my playing.

EdLee wrote: missed the vital point G4. First, G4 in sente, then you can jump ahead to J3 next, instead of the slow push H3 .

Sure ! thnaks a lot for that comment as I try to collect any thing I can about "non joseki sequence" that occurs during a 3-3 invasion. and 56 was not the joseki...

oca wrote:
ok, I was thinking that was an influence point...

As we improve, we are constantly adjusting our understanding of
many things, including influence (which, at these levels, is often magic).

oca wrote: funny shape
I just feared the cut,

What cut.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . ? . . . O O O . . .
$$ | . . ? . . ? ? X X . . . .
$$ | . . X ? ? X X X . . X . .
$$ | . . X X X ? X O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . ? ? X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X X 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

I didn't liked that... but pk... that's ridiculous...
that's just that seeing that position on a real goban or in my head during the game is not the same, I cannot make a clear picture enougth in my head and ofen fear wins... I had the feeling the marked stone may somehow get "out of control"...

oca, in your variation with the cut it is better for black to tenuki after white 4: white has just made some useless almost dead stones stuck against a strong black wall. Your 5 helps white. But white did have a good move here instead of the cut, namely k15 push. Because of the 3 dead stones this is atari, so black has to capture and then white can play k14 to separate l14 (spot the ripped keima broken shape). So black 1 at k15 would be good to prevent this, and has a nice follow up at l16 so it's probably sente.

Uberdude wrote:... and then white can play k14 to separate l14 (spot the ripped keima broken shape).

Arg... correct...so I somehow vitualy failed my exercice to have zero bad shape ...

Here is a new game.

I commented till move 100. I was a bit confused during the game,
Ther is a lot of move where I really didn't know what to do... I'm not really use to play game with a close result.

Any comment welcome.

Ok, I'm not very used to giving suggestions and I'm only 4/5k, so take these with a pinch of salt: -

3 - I think this move is more designed to set up a Chinese fuseki, but I never play them myself, so don't take that for certain.
5 - Encoling a 3-4 is probably better than approaching a 4-4, but your enclosure is facing away from your stone, W has a chance to play the ideal extension from both his 4-4 stone and your enclouse at K3 or K4.
6 - Be happy
7 - I'd back off high probably, but either looks fine to me. Stronger player may say one or the other is better.
11 - Either Q10/R10 or go all the way over to F3 if you want to develop fast.
13 - Looks cramped... but not sure what a better option would be.
17 - Jump to R8 works here I believe.
27 - I don't like the idea of having W play C13 in response here, you might get a two space extenstion still, but it should come under immediate attack. I think C14 would be better.
30 - You can still invade this shape as you noted However, it's not the butterfly shape which you have a guaranteed invasion on.
31 - Possible to pre-emptively defend your group, alternatively something at the top centre area is probably biggest.
33 - This explains it far better than I can: http://senseis.xmp.net/?Butterfly and http://senseis.xmp.net/?364463Enclosure33Invasion
47 - The peep at D10 could become very annoying, think I solid connection would have been easier.
53 - Top centre is still large.
54 - I guess it's still connected, so it's not what you'd normally call a broken shape, not likely to do much though.
55 - Misclicks happen, sadly. We've probably all lost games because of them.
67 - Shape is a tool, the mouth shape is designed to be an ultra solid shape that virtually guarantees an eye, if you're already at the edge and have two directions to run in it might be redundant, locally maybe push down at E9 instead?
85 - Connect back to your group!
100 - I think C2 kills you here.
109 - Hane at L4 looks a whole lot safer.
269 -

PeterN

I added some variations after your 3-3 corner invasions. My comments start at and at . I likely made some mistakes and would appreciate any corrections. Also I'm not sure if the 3-3 invasion into the "small butterfly formation" at move lives at all (see e. g. variation on ) and would be glad, if someone could shed some more light onto that position

Hi PeterN and schawipp

Thanks a lot for your comments,
Just a bit more about these first moves :

PeterN wrote: 3 - I think this move is more designed to set up a Chinese fuseki, but I never play them myself, so don't take that for certain.
5 - Encoling a 3-4 is probably better than approaching a 4-4, but your enclosure is facing away from your stone, W has a chance to play the ideal extension from both his 4-4 stone and your enclouse at K3 or K4.
6 - Be happy

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . b . . 6 . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

According to pro games searched using that tool http://ps.waltheri.net/,
it seems that :

- making a low chinese opening at move 5 is the first choice
- still at move 5, making a shimari like I did (and so an orthodox fuseki [edit] well... no it's not an orthodox fuseki... see post #135 below...[/edit] ) is the 3rd choice.

- from that shimari, aproaching like 6 is the 10th choice. the first one beeing as you said to play at "a"

then every thing seems fine till move 10 which didn't seems to appear in any pro game, and there is only two match at move 9, both play 10 at "b"

PeterN wrote: 100 - I think C2 kills you here.

houps... sure... I missed that in my self-review

PeterN wrote: 269 -

The most funny things is that I would have totaly missed that if white didn't took the ko at move 268.. I was then looking for a ko threat "just for fun" as this is not a hudge ko... and went to this 269 and only then I saw that was not just a threat, but that I would win the game with this one...
without it, I think I would have lost by something like 5 to 10 points...

Some old stats on Black 5...

Thx ez4u,

I just saw that they use different name for the fuseki depending on the orientation of the shimari.
but I understand "Orthodox Fuseki" as just behing "hoshi + shimari" whatever the orientation of shimari is ...
That would be great if someone can tell me a bit more about that ...

oca wrote: I just saw that they use different name for the fuseki depending on the orientation of the shimari.
but I understand "Orthodox Fuseki" as just behing "hoshi + shimari" whatever the orientation of shimari is ...
That would be great if someone can tell me a bit more about that ...

Orthodox is only when the shimari faces towards the hoshi. And in that configuration the hoshi (or 3-10) in between them is a very good next move as it's a good extension from both the 4-4 and shimari. Your way round (the Mark 2 Kobayashi) the middle point isn't so appealing anymore because it's too flat with the shimari (less of a box shape). But then the black extension on the lower side goes up in value as it's the preferred direction from your shimari (and also a nice extension from white's lower left corner).