Life In 19x19

Posted: **Sat Nov 05, 2016 4:42 am**

Impressive analysis by Uberdude. I can see why he is a regular contestant for the national title.

Posted: **Sat Nov 05, 2016 5:21 am**

Uberdude, in your first diagram and its following variations, why should White reply at 2? To help Black getting a "Breakthrough to Shodan" wall? No. So White 2 is better a checking extension on the lower side.

Posted: **Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:38 am**

Knotwilg, thanks, but I'm not sure it really helps. Despite all that analysis I'd probably end up playing the same move as I would in a 5 second blitz! It also helps there aren't many strong players here...

Robert, yes good point "probably hane" was too strong, seeing as k3 or so is still a nice answer. Also maybe black can't really get that wall but white hane at some point, I didn't read the resulting fights. But at least with the d9 push you have a better follow-up than the knight's move (easy to tenuki, with d9 I would pause for thought), but white can ignore that again (because if answer I think it's a good exchange for black even if he next tenukis) and play some other big opening move. But probably answer 5 because it preserves the cut which could be quite valuable?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 4 , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 5 O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Actually, I wonder if hane once is good (if black will then answer) and then tenuki, as now black's follow-up is not so good.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 3 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

But maybe this gives a chance to black for black to correct his direction mistake and you get a rather weird result:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 a . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Now white could just continue the game as if black directly extended to k3 (or nearby point), or extend out to a and black's push of 1 becomes a crude bad move. But seeing as white was unlikely to play the knight's move into the centre at this early point in the opening, maybe that local badness is worth tricking white into playing global badness.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc 2 slow $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Posted: **Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:03 am**

Impressive analysis by Uberdude. I can see why he is a regular contestant for the national title.

Agreed, and it reminds me of a point I've thought of making a few times n this thread, but ducked. It is this: the ability to write a strong narrative about what is going on in a position is the mark of a good player. Less good players may mention the same points but in a discrete or listy way. But if you can tell the story of your game (I mean based entirely on the objective position, not your feelings, so "I was ahead but made a blunder" is a whinge not a story), it shows not just others but yourself that you have understood at least some of what is going on. It is therefore a skill worth cultivating.

The best amateur I ever encountered at doing this was Jan van der Steen. He was an under-ranked EGF 3-dan, I think, but I think he learnt the skill partly from his 6-dan Japanese wife.

Posted: **Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:19 am**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . 8 . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 6 O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Uberdude, I have had this sequence in mind. 2 is at a cautious distance respecting the wall. Then both stabilise their left side shapes. Finally, White splits the top.

Posted: **Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:40 am**

Well, Mimura's comments are interesting. It wasn't until I considered the pincer to "A" that I got the inkling that black's "thickness" isn't so hot, but it didn't alter my thinking much. Also I added 3 candidates in uninteresting areas of the board even though I know better. I am not sure I would really spend time on those in a game---there is a difference between that and this academic exercise---but that's telling. I could have spent more time considering lower side candidates.

I've lost a lot of "walls" against stronger players because they lack eye shape.

Posted: **Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:57 am**

Hmmm. I didn't come close to Mimura's answer.

Although, he did make a point of saying one of my ideas was a bad moved like by amateurs.

Posted: **Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:01 pm**

I've lost a lot of "walls" against stronger players because they lack eye shape.

I don't lose walls; I just don't get anything good with them.

Posted: **Sat Nov 05, 2016 1:17 pm**

I think that maybe this position from a no komi game is relevant to fundamentals. At least for a few moves.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm60 White to play (Black has captured 2 stones) $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . X . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X X X X | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . X O O X X . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . O . X X O X X X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O O O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What do you think are the next three moves?

Posted: **Sat Nov 05, 2016 4:45 pm**

My first thought was:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm White to play (Black has captured 2 stones) $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . X . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X X X X | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . X O O X X . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . O . X X O X X X X 3 | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O O O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But

at T2 kills because Black has those extra liberties on the outside.

at T2 doesn't work either for the smae reason.

at R1 doesn't work either because Black can capture to gain a liberty that way.

Why do I have a feeling I'm missing something?

After my attempt to kill the lower right fails, I'd play:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm White to play (Black has captured 2 stones) $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . X . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X X X X | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . X O O X X . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . O . X X O X X X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O O O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Sat Nov 05, 2016 5:01 pm**

My take:

It wasn't until I wanted to play my move that I saw it was White's turn. That's pretty disastrous for Black, isn't it? The lower right will likely become a seki in gote, the central black stones are almost throw away stones and although Black has some big areas to lay claim to, White's thickness (dare I use the word) already seems to dominate.

So here I was, trying to explain that this sequence is "ja choong soo" for Black. And that 'a' looks attractive but amateurish. And that the proper move to play is probably 'b', in order to still get something out of those black stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . a . O . . X . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . b . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X X X X | $$ | . . X , . O . . 4 3 . . . X O O X X . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . O 1 X X O X X X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . 2 O O O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But it's White to play??? OK.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . X . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . a . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . b . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X X X X | $$ | . . X , . O . . . . . . . X O O X X . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . O . X X O X X X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O O O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'd like to forestall Black's best strategic options then, so 'a' or something active instead of 'b'. This sequence comes to mind.

Posted: **Tue Nov 08, 2016 9:00 am**

Hello?

Posted: **Tue Nov 08, 2016 9:27 am**

Sorry for the delay.

Off to the doctor's office. I'll get back to this later today.

Hint:

Posted: **Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:12 am**

John Fairbairn wrote: ...Here's an example where both higher ranked and lower ranked players can compare themselves to an even higher ranked player, a pro, in picking 5 candidate moves (and then making a final choice, of course - Black to play). I think we can all agree that this sort of position is very common and, both from that point of view and others, fundamental.
$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
...

I haven't been on the forum regularly lately, but I was checking back in and wanted to try my hand at this.

My thoughts:
Black has invested a lot of stones in building up a wall while allowing white to get territory, so it seems the key to the game is making good use of that influence. I know better than to try to directly make territory in front of the wall, there aren't a lot of ways to use it on an attack at the moment.

Candidate 1:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This looks to make a direct attack on the white stone and force it towards the wall. The downside is that there is still plenty of room for white to settle, so it's not really an effective attack. However, if white makes a move along the bottom I could play directly on the star point and form a framework on the right. If white invades to try to reduce the potential of that framework, the wall is likely to come in handy.
Candidate 2:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This looks to restore the balance between influence / territory. It also eye an extension along the right, and if white tries to prevent that by immediately extending in that direction black can launch a splitting attack and the wall becomes useful in the later fighting.
Candidate 3:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . B , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The same idea as above with a slightly greater emphasis on the right side territory.
Candidate 4:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , B . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Since both of my previous moves look to make an extension in this direction, perhaps I should look at this move directly. This looks a little flat, but the goal is to make territory from whatever fighting ensues on the right.
Candidate 5:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

A hybrid of my first candidate and my last move. Does this put enough pressure on white to ensure a response? If so, I'm a little more likely to come out with territory on the right.

I briefly considered a move on the top or an invasion of the lower right, too, but neither of those seem to work in concert with the wall.

While enclosing the top corner is tempting, I'd almost certainly go with the knight's move approach in candidate 1. That move will almost certainly provoke a response in this situation, and if I can use it to build a framework and provoke fighting that takes advantage of the wall I think I'll be able to get profit in some way. The large knight's move and enclosing the corner directly both seem too passive here. If white gets to leisurely build a base from the bottom corner it could negate a lot of influence from black's wall.

Edit: Just read John's answer and saw that I was totally off base, for exactly the reason he suggested I was likely to be off base.

Posted: **Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:38 am**

How about:

White reduces the left and tries to force black to defend his strong area, developing the centre. Later a could grow the centre or munch m17. My eye is also drawn to L9 (b) as a future way to tease the black group, and set up ko lock shape if it tries to come out with knight's move. Is it dame crap or a genius move though...?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm60 Black obedient $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . X . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . a X , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . b . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X X X X | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . X O O X X . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . O . X X O X X X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O O O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm60 Black resists $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . X . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X X X X | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . X O O X X . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . O . X X O X X X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O O O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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