Page 9 of 19

Re: 122. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:07 pm
by ez4u
Obs:
Kirby wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm61
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X X X O O X . 4 O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . X O O . O X . O . X X . . |
$$ | . O X . . . X X O . O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X . O . O X X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X O . O X . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, there you go. He lived. But I feel like there's still a good game to be played.


Consider Kirby's play here and its effect. On the good side, it kept sente. On the bad side...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , 5 b X . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . O X 4 7 . a . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X O 6 X 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X X X O O X 9 1 O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . X O O . O X . O 2 B B . . |
$$ | . O X . . . X X O . O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X . O . O X X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X O . O X . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

"Forcing" White to play 2 reduces the liberties on the marked stones and makes it more likely that MW will come up with something nasty in the corner. In addition, the exchange does not completely fix the connection at the top. White can play 8 after 6 so Black has no choice but to connect at 7 rather than "b".

Consider this alternative...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X O 1 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X X X O O X . b O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . X O O 4 O X . O a X X . . |
$$ | . O X . . . X X O 3 O X . c . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X 5 O 6 O X X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X O . O X . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . d . O . O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

B1 is gote locally. However, it leaves behind the ability to cut off two White stones with "a" through "c". It completely connects in the center. Finally it allows Black to play 1 through 5 in sente, which eliminates some of the aji in the lower left corner ("d" can no longer take advantage of Black shortage of liberties).

Re: 122. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:02 am
by Kirby
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm61
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . , . . X . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . O O . . . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 0 . . . . . . X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X X X O O X . X O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . X O O . O X . O O X X . . |
$$ | . O X . . . X X O . O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X . O . O X X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X O . O X . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, there's a lot of action that can happen in the near future, but before that starts, I'd like to get this move in while I still think he'll respond.

Re: 122. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:31 am
by Magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm61
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . , . . X . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . O O . . . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X X X O O X . X O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . X O O . O X . O O X X . . |
$$ | . O X . . . X X O . O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X . O . O X X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . O X X O . O X . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 122. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:49 am
by Kirby
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm61
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . , . . X . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . O O . . . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X X X O O X . X O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . X O O . O X . O O X X . . |
$$ | . O X . . . X X O . O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 2 X . X . O . O X X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . O X X O . O X . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Sure, we can do this, first...

Re: 122. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:41 am
by Magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm61
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . , . . X . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . O O . . . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X X X O O X . X O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X 3 . X O O . O X . O O X X . . |
$$ | . O X . . . X X O . O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . O X X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X O . O X . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 122. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:44 pm
by perceval
nice illustration of force before defending

Re: 122. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 5:56 pm
by Magicwand
for obs only
for those who are curious why i didnt trigger below sequences...
i needed to think about tenuki and follow below sequence
that cut at "a" is too small for me to defend.. i rather grab myself a flow...and attack marked black stone.
personally i dont think he has a time to cut...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm61
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . , . . B . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . O O . . . O B . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X X O . B . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a O O . X X X O O B . B O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X 3 . X O O . O B . O O X X . . |
$$ | . O X 4 . . X X O . O B . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . O X B . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X O . O B . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . O B . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 122. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:04 pm
by hyperpape
Dave, although Kirby has already played a different move to defend, would it still be worth it to play that block you identified? It still has the same effect on the bottom side, and it was gote to begin with.

Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:16 pm
by EdLee
:b70: feels much better at :b1: instead:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . , . . X . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . O O . . . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X X X O O X . X O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . X O O . O X . O O X X . . |
$$ | . O X . . . X X O . O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X . O . O X X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X O . O X . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 122. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:44 pm
by Magicwand
for obs:
below is wrong..
i atari because he peeped.. if he tenuki then it doesnt make sense to peep.
but.. still right answer for black is tenuki...

i should have not atari :w63: and play :w65: to make sure i keep my sente.
these little thing will make big difference in any game...

i still think my opponent will answer my atari..but i guess i am taking unnecessary risk...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm61
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . , . . B . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . O O . . . O B . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X X O . B . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a O O . X X X O O B . B O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X 3 . X O O . O B . O O X X . . |
$$ | . O X 4 . . X X O . O B . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . O X B . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X O . O B . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . O B . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 122. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:11 am
by Magicwand
kirby is not answering my move for long time.. :(
now i am scared.. maybe he is trying to tenuki.
what if he doesnt answer my atari???
i should have tenukied while i had a chance...

Re: 122. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:21 am
by Kirby
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm61
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . , . . X . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . O O . . . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X X X O O X . X O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X O . X O O . O X . O O X X . . |
$$ | . O X . . . X X O . O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . O X X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X O . O X . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My shape doesn't feel good if I connect, and with the forcing moves he's gotten in the area, I wonder about the value of getting the three stones I was aiming at before.

If he takes my stone, I don't think it is sente. So I will hold back for now, and try to get a better idea of his plan.

Re: 122. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:31 am
by Magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm61
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . , . . X . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . O O . . . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X X X O O X . X O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X O . X O O . O X . O O X X . . |
$$ | . O X . . . X X O . O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . O X X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X O . O X . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 122. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:36 am
by hyperpape
Magicwand wrote:kirby is not answering my move for long time.. :(
now i am scared.. maybe he is trying to tenuki.
what if he doesnt answer my atari???
i should have tenukied while i had a chance...
Kirby wrote:If he takes my stone, I don't think it is sente. So I will hold back for now, and try to get a better idea of his plan.
Malkovich games probably aren't the most productive thing to read, but this is great.

Re: 122. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:07 am
by Kirby
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm61
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 6 7 . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . , . . X . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . O O . . . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X X X O O X . X O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X O . X O O . O X . O O X X . . |
$$ | . O X . . . X X O . O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . O X X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X O . O X . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, he didn't capture my stone. I suppose he doesn't have to do anything in that area, since I didn't.

His response seems to indicate that the left side is not important to him. Rather, he is building up power in the center. If that's his plan, then maybe I should be concerned about the center, too.

I would like to get sente to stablize my groups in the center:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm61
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . , . . B . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . O O . . . O B . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . B B O . B . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X X B O O B . X O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X O . X O O . O B . O O X X . . |
$$ | . O X . . . X X O . O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . O X X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X O . O X . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


He has forcing moves in the area, above. I want to reinforce that area.

I hope to get sente from this exchange...

...But will he let me have it?