[go]$$Bcm57 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 8 0 . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X 2 . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X 7 . X O . . | $$ | . . 1 O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Again, no way white will play . But even without that tennuki I think white has some problems here. And that corner became solid black profit, which is nice. I think maybe the question will be if a move like (or at ) can threaten black's bottom group enough.
Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:59 pm
by Chew Terr
$$Bcm51 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm51 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 9 . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Value: 55.7% !! This is a HUGE leap up from the past, it's hovered in the 49-52% range the whole game. If Fuego could talk, I think it would say that white's last move was a mistake. It also spent a long time deciding how to play next (24:38):
$$Bcm51 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . h O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O e . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . f . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . b . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . g . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . a . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X d . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm51 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . h O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O e . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . f . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . b . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . g . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . a . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X d . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
a - 41% b - 19% c - 10% d - 10% e - 6% f - 4% g - 2% h - 2%
Notice that Fuego didn't strongly consider many attacking plays on the bottom group, it may assume that white is alive for now. In particular it didn't seem to see Gaius's suggestion.
$$Bcm59 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 3 . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . . . . O . 1 . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X 4 7 0 . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X 9 . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . 8 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm59 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 3 . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . . . . O . 1 . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X 4 7 0 . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X 9 . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . 8 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
From this sequence and the considered moves, here are my thoughts: 0) I like quite a bit, takes a big point and threatens to cut off the two stones. I think Chew needs to activate the aji in O3 soon, or the corner may be at risk. 1) It still overestimates the aji of its two stones on the top, thinking perhaps it can live on the top. (It may be possible, but I'm a bit skeptical) 2) It probably underestimates the weakness in white's bottom group. 3) It thinks it can win even if the white group lives. I've heard the advice that if you think it's close, take big yose. That may be black's plan here.
Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:23 pm
by Chew Terr
$$Bcm51 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 9 . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . . . . X O . 0 . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 9 8 O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X 0 . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X 3 . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . 7 2 6 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I like the tennuki from the right side, I think maybe the exchange is kikashi for black. As for the sequence, Fuego always thinks Q15 is a little bit away. It's been thinking that since move 45. Otherwise the sequence seems mostly reasonable, this is the first time it's looked at the 33 invasion instead of the 34 attachment.
Moves considered:
$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O b . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . a e . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O b . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . a e . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
a - 27% b - 22% c - 13% d - 12% e - 8%
I'm a bit surprised how close Fuego came to playing b. It's an interesting fighting move, but why complicate if you feel ahead? One other point: Fuego did spend a tiny (1169) number of playouts on O4, the move Chew's been wanting. The sequence it saw was this:
$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . . . 4 X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X 2 3 X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . . . 4 X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X 2 3 X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This seems like an all-or-nothing kind of fight, but maybe black has enough thickness to pull it off?
Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:32 am
by Mike Novack
emeraldemon wrote: .......I'm a bit surprised how close Fuego came to playing b. It's an interesting fighting move, but why complicate if you feel ahead?........
.......This seems like an all-or-nothing kind of fight, but maybe black has enough thickness to pull it off?.....
We are perhaps looking at one of the major differences between how this algorithm operates and how a human has to play the game.
Complications ....... make it harder for a human who has to keep track of more things, remembering what has been left unfinished and still has potential, etc. The algorithm is analyzing afresh each move. It isn't burdened by keeping in mind "plans". Doesn't work that way. I rather suspect that at least a bit of the overall strength of these programs is that they can afford complications that would burden a human player of approximately the same strength. Nor is it that the program is trying to complicate (as a human player might do if calculating the best chance remaining that the opponent goes astray). It's simply playing the best move it can find to maintain an advantage (or to possibly gain one) whether that's complicated or straightforward. It has no way of judging "this is more complicated than that".
In effect it's good at all out fighting but isn't "thinking" in those terms. If that thickness is enough, then the playouts will result in that fighting move valued as best.
Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:12 am
by emeraldemon
Mike Novack wrote: We are perhaps looking at one of the major differences between how this algorithm operates and how a human has to play the game.
Complications ....... make it harder for a human who has to keep track of more things, remembering what has been left unfinished and still has potential, etc. The algorithm is analyzing afresh each move. It isn't burdened by keeping in mind "plans". Doesn't work that way. I rather suspect that at least a bit of the overall strength of these programs is that they can afford complications that would burden a human player of approximately the same strength. Nor is it that the program is trying to complicate (as a human player might do if calculating the best chance remaining that the opponent goes astray). It's simply playing the best move it can find to maintain an advantage (or to possibly gain one) whether that's complicated or straightforward. It has no way of judging "this is more complicated than that".
In effect it's good at all out fighting but isn't "thinking" in those terms. If that thickness is enough, then the playouts will result in that fighting move valued as best.
Yes and no. Actually Fuego (and most monte-carlo bots I think) does play more conservatively when it's ahead and more aggressively when it's behind. It's an interesting (and positive) property of the evaluation system. If Fuego is behind (i.e. most "normal" moves lose in playouts), it will start playing complications or attacking moves, because maybe they win occasionally. This can actually be a bit annoying, because when the win % gets very low, it usually plays some ridiculous invasions, cuts that don't work, etc. for maybe 10-15 moves before deciding to resign. But sometimes you mess up in response, and it's back in the game.
On the flip side, It doesn't care about score at all, so if it enters yose up by 10 points, it will play a protective move inside its own space rather than take a 2 point endgame play, because the protection wins more in playouts. Actually much of the time Fuego wins, it wins by 0.5 or 1.5 , because it would rather be sure of a small win than push for a bigger one.
Overall it's a smart strategy, and it's pretty cool that it's an emergent property of the search, and not something that had to be hand coded. However, it can backfire: I played Fuego once in a game where it was ahead, it gave away several endgame moves so it could protect cuts that didn't work, and eventually it had to win a 1-pt ko to win the game. But it had miscalculated somewhere and I won the ko. (This wasn't a slow game like this, it was a blitz 9x9 if I remember correctly.)
Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:36 am
by Chew Terr
$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X 2 . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X 2 . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Ouch, that is a giant mass of territory. I wonder if I ought to resign here. I can't even do F10 like I wanted, because it can just be cut successfully. At least, it looks like that to my reading now. I'm going to mess around over here, then look into more aggressive stuff to deal with that left side entrance. I kept reading and nothing QUITE worked. However, if I get K5 (which I want anyways), the stuff on the right may just work, as I have a bit more space to run to. As a result, I may even get K5 in sente. That may be a bit optimistic, but a game review I got earlier told me 'Don't just go for the jugular, but try to get your sente moves THREATENING to kill first, and then see if you can kill or not'. So I'm going to try that, to see if I can get any kind of reduction value out of this side.
$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . 9 8 4 X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X 2 6 X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X 7 O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . b O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . c e d . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
a - 54% b - 23% c - 10% d - 7% e - 3%
The push at b is probably sente, but I'm pretty sure black can play it at any time, so there's not much reason to play it now. c,d,e are all looking for a looser answer to the local position. I agree that hane is best though.
Main Line:
$$Bcm63 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 . 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . 5 O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O 3 . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X 0 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm63 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 . 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . 5 O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O 3 . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X 0 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
(Holding my tongue about ) After the hane, Fuego is 78% confident of and which starts a potentially nasty battle. I think black's influence is enough to stay ahead, but it's a bit hard to read. Just for fun, here's the rest of Fuego's prediction about the fight:
$$Bcm73 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 0 8 . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 9 X O . . . X O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X 3 . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O 2 5 X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O 1 4 X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X O 7 . 6 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O . 4 . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Okay, so this threatens either the move I've been eyeing all game (O4) or to move out into the middle fairly quickly. I'm guessing that black will let me connect underneath at P2 now, but it's something.
Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:34 pm
by emeraldemon
$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O 5 O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O O O X 9 . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Value: 57.5% Time: 23:10
Fuego accepted the trigger, I hope you don't mind if I don't post the sequence since this supersedes it. Notice that the value took another significant jump up (was 55.9%). Fuego is liking this game more and more
Moves Considered:
$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . e . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X d b . c O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O O O X a . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm69 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X 8 . . 3 O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O O O X 1 . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . 7 X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X 6 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Now that the bottom group is settled, I think black looks pretty good. The middle will come under attack, but I'm not sure Chew has enough. The only thing that makes me doubt is Fuego's certainty that white has to block on the top.
Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:45 am
by Chew Terr
$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X 0 . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X 0 . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Right. Because of the atari exchange, I didn't actually really get anything for burning the aji here. Darn. Well, I suppose there's always the brute force method for reduction. Someone tell me, should I resign? I never can tell when games are viable and when it's just over.
. But even without that tennuki I think white has some problems here. And that corner became solid black profit, which is nice. I think maybe the question will be if a move like 
(or 
) can threaten black's bottom group enough.
quite a bit, takes a big point and threatens to cut off the two stones. I think Chew needs to activate the aji in O3 soon, or the corner may be at risk. 
)
and 
which starts a potentially nasty battle. I think black's influence is enough to stay ahead, but it's a bit hard to read. Just for fun, here's the rest of Fuego's prediction about the fight:
at x)