Guess-the-next-move!

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Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Post by gogameguru »

Magicwand wrote:
gogameguru wrote:
Yes, the peep doesn't look so good now.

The commentary said that the peep (33) was played too late. According to them, the best time to peep was this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm32 The timing of the peep
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 . O . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 2 3 O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White said he would've played 36 in that case, giving black time to finish the corner.

even that i dont agree... in above diag..that peep didnt do anything for black.
it made the black's side weaker if any...


@Magicwand
Well if it goes as suggested, black gets time to finish the lower right corner. If white still invades the corner, then white is heavier than before and now the weakness at n12 has been enlarged. I don't think black can ask for more than that.

I understand what you're saying. If you don't like the peep at all, that's a different matter and it's your style. You can leave it unplayed if you want.

If black was going to peep at all though, this is the right time to force white to connect and increase the weaknesses in white's shape. After black extends at q7, white's two stones become lighter.
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Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Post by gogameguru »

Sorry for the slowness. As some of you might've observed, it's been one of those weeks...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . X . O . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 1 . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

How would you deal with 51?
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Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Post by gogameguru »

What's black's next move?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . X . O . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 1 . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Post by Chew Terr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . X . O . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 B O . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 1 . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is what I'd like to see~
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Post by gogameguru »

@Chew
Right, that's what black wants to do. The only question is can he do it now?

The commentary doesn't talk about this, but here's my analysis:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc White sacrifices in good form and takes a big point like :w10:.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . X . O . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 2 O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 O 9 . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 4 X 7 O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 5 O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Pushing at 8 and playing atari everywhere wouldn't really help black.

You'll see in the game that black plays to enlarge the weakness first, mainly to prevent the diagram above from happening.
Last edited by gogameguru on Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Post by gogameguru »

So black still aims at cutting, how can white handle this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . X . O . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 1 X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Post by Chew Terr »

gogameguru wrote:@Chew
Right, that's what black wants to do. The only question is can he do it now?

The commentary doesn't talk about this, but here's my analysis:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc White sacrifices in good form and takes a big point like :w10:.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . X . O . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 2 O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 O 9 . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 4 X 7 O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 5 O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Pushing at 8 and playing atari everywhere wouldn't really help black.

You'll see in the game that black plays to enlarge the weakness first, mainly to prevent the diagram above from happening.

Thanks. I seem to worry too much about if I CAN cut, not if I SHOULD.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Post by hyperpape »

I think White ends up thick if Black cuts after :w54:. I don't really know how to handle :b55: though.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . X . O . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 2 1 X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Post by gogameguru »

hyperpape wrote:
I think White ends up thick if Black cuts after :w54:. I don't really know how to handle :b55: though.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . X . O . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 2 1 X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


@hyperpape
Good point, white has to look for the best way to sacrifice some stones here.
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Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Post by gogameguru »

So this is the game. Similar to hyperpape's diagram, except black decides to cut at 55 first. What happens if white blocks here? What's the alternative?

If you need some ideas, you can look at the two hidden posts above. As is often the case with Go, the next move comes much more naturally when you look at things from the right perspective.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . X . O . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 O . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 2 1 X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
hyperpape
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Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Post by hyperpape »

Turns out I wasn't reading enough.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . X . O . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 5 4 O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O 3 O . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 2 1 X 7 O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'd been thinking of this diagram, which ends up good for White, I think. White ends up thick.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . X . O . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 5 4 O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O 3 O . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 2 1 X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 0 8 9 O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
But black doesn't have to cut :b59: is better, I think. It's true that white ends up with a wall, but I don't like it as much.

I still can't think of any way around :w56: or :b57: or :w58:.
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Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Post by gogameguru »

Well it seems like people aren't that interested in continuing this. Is it because it's boring or because it's too hard? In my opinion, it's not the most exciting game.

What do you all want to do? Continue or not?

Also, does anyone know when gaius is coming back? I thought he said he'd be away for two weeks but it's been 3-4 weeks.
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Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Post by jts »

I've been following it, but it's a bit above my level to try to read out the sequences - the strategic aims are hard for me to grasp, let alone the local moves.
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Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Post by Dusk Eagle »

This type of thread often seems to peter out. If you do stop, it would be nice if you could at least post an SGF of the entire game.
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Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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SoDesuNe
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Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Post by SoDesuNe »

For me it's just heavily time-consuming to come up with an answer, that's why I seldom write here.
It is really interesting to read this position and to reason between possible outcomes and I think it is very beneficial but then again, it takes a lot of time (>1 hour) if I want to be satisfied with my assessment ^^
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