User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by Cassandra »

RobertJasiek wrote:In your attachment Mappe 1, I am having difficulties to follow the start of your sketch. In table row E, implicitly you claim this


Conjecture:

The player cannot force a local-1 permanent-stone
AND
The player cannot force a local-2\1 permanent-stone

<=>

The player cannot force a local-2 permanent-stone.


Remarks:

By definition, we know that local-1 + local-2\1 = local-2. But now how do you prove the conjecture? A naive logic operation is insufficient because the "force" for local-2 works independently of the "force"s for local-1 and local-2\1. It is not just a textual addition that you dream of.

Only the "<=" direction of the conjecture is given trivially. The other direction you need to prove explicitly!

As written in my answer to your next posting, "local" has other characteristics as "capturable".

Local is the primary parameter, capturable only a deduced one.

Both tables refer to "local", not to "capturable", what is a tiny, but very decisive difference.

X = (The player cannot force a local-1 permanent stone) AND (The player cannot force a local-2\1 permanent stone)
X = NOT (The player can force a local-1 permanent stone) AND NOT (The player can force a local-2\1 stone)
X = NOT (the player can force) ((a local-1 permanent stone) OR (a local 2\1 permanent stone))
X = NOT (the player can force) (a (local-1 OR local-2\1) permanent stone))
X = NOT (the player can force) (a local-2 permanent stone)
X = The player cannot force a local-2 permanent stone

Works in either direction.

(edited due to a mistake in the primary sentences)
Last edited by Cassandra on Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by RobertJasiek »

"capturable-1" and "capturable-2" should be used as secondary parameters only, when needed to refer to "live", because they can be deducted from the primary ones.


As usual, context is missing so that I cannot understand what you write here.

Local-2 is by definition the compound of local-1 and local-2\1. It follows that a permanent stone in local-2 is impossible, because none is in any of its parts.


In J2003-context's local-2, such an implication is wrong: Example 0000 proves this as a counter-example: The tengen stone is not capturable-1, is not capturable-2\1 but is capturable-2.

Maybe you mean a different context? In that case, please state it!

As consequence of your seeing a "mistake" in a table where there is none,


As long as you do not explain your tables well, I can either simply ignore them entirely or tell you what I see in them. And what I see is the mistake because I expected J2003-context.

I would you suggest to rely Chris' proof on "local-1", "local-2", and "local-2\1" as primary conditions for the clauses.


Since Chris's proof is not about local-2\1, you should state the entire context for your tables explicitly.
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by RobertJasiek »

X = (The player cannot force a local-1 permanent stone) AND (The player cannot force a local-2\1 permanent stone)
X = The player cannot force ((a local-1 permanent stone) AND (a local-2\1 permanent stone))


How do you prove this step in direction "=>"?
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by Cassandra »

RobertJasiek wrote:
Local-2 is by definition the compound of local-1 and local-2\1. It follows that a permanent stone in local-2 is impossible, because none is in any of its parts.

In J2003-context's local-2, such an implication is wrong: Example 0000 proves this as a counter-example: The tengen stone is not capturable-1, is not capturable-2\1 but is capturable-2.
Maybe you mean a different context? In that case, please state it!

If you refer to capturable-2\1 as there is established a permanent stone in local-2\1, the Tengen stone in your #0000 is as capturable-2\1 as it is capturable-2.

The Tengen stone is turned into an eye point, so the additional player's stones can only be in local-2\1, because local-1 is now the eye point.
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by Cassandra »

RobertJasiek wrote:
X = (The player cannot force a local-1 permanent stone) AND (The player cannot force a local-2\1 permanent stone)
X = The player cannot force ((a local-1 permanent stone) AND (a local-2\1 permanent stone))


How do you prove this step in direction "=>"?

Thank for the hint, did not work in either direction.
I had not recognised that AND combines two negative clauses in sentence 1. ;-)

Have corrected my posting.

Now the sentences are:

X = (The player cannot force a local-1 permanent stone) AND (The player cannot force a local-2\1 permanent stone)
X = NOT (The player can force a local-1 permanent stone) AND NOT (The player can force a local-2\1 permanent stone)
X = NOT (the player can force) ((a local-1 permanent stone) OR (a local 2\1 permanent stone))
X = NOT (the player can force) (a (local-1 OR local-2\1) permanent stone))
X = NOT (the player can force) (a local-2 permanent stone)

X = The player cannot force a local-2 permanent stone

What you are looking for are the two sentences in bold.

local-2\1 = local-2 AND NOT local-1
local-2\1 OR local-1 = (local-2 AND NOT local-1) OR local-1
local-2\1 OR local-1 = (local-2 OR local-1) AND (NOT local-1 OR local-1)
local-2\1 OR local-1 = local-2 AND TRUE
local-2\1 OR local-1 = local-2
Last edited by Cassandra on Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by Cassandra »

RobertJasiek wrote:Since Chris's proof is not about local-2\1, you should state the entire context for your tables explicitly.

I'll edit Chris' proof (the second part only, which we are discussing here) later - may be tomorrow -, making the reference to local-1 and local-2\1 clearly visible.

It will be just the contents of the table in prose.
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by RobertJasiek »

If you refer to capturable-2\1 as there is established a permanent stone in local-2\1, the Tengen stone in your #0000 is as capturable-2\1 as it is capturable-2.

The Tengen stone is turned into an eye point, so the additional player's stones can only be in local-2\1, because local-1 is now the eye point.


Oops, you are right about Example 0000!
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by RobertJasiek »

I'll edit Chris' proof (the second part only, which we are discussing here) later - may be tomorrow -, making the reference to local-1 and local-2\1 clearly visible.


Great!

It will be just the contents of the table in prose.


We'll see:)
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by RobertJasiek »

X = (The player cannot force a local-1 permanent stone) AND (The player cannot force a local-2\1 permanent stone)
X = NOT (The player can force a local-1 permanent stone) AND NOT (The player can force a local-2\1 permanent stone)
X = NOT (the player can force) ((a local-1 permanent stone) OR (a local 2\1 permanent stone))
X = NOT (the player can force) (a (local-1 OR local-2\1) permanent stone))
X = NOT (the player can force) (a local-2 permanent stone)

X = The player cannot force a local-2 permanent stone

What you are looking for are the two sentences in bold.

local-2\1 = local-2 AND NOT local-1
local-2\1 OR local-1 = (local-2 AND NOT local-1) OR local-1
local-2\1 OR local-1 = (local-2 OR local-1) AND (NOT local-1 OR local-1)
local-2\1 OR local-1 = local-2 AND TRUE
local-2\1 OR local-1 = local-2


I do not buy this fake proof by overlooking "force" everywhere. What you really need to do is to apply the definition of force and study what you get then: hypothetical-sequences of hypothetical-strategies. (Before you do that, you better retransform to J2003-style-double-negation.) I have not checked whether you need to do it for every transformations (maybe you use some purely logic operational ones); the bold step requires precision for sure though.
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by TMark »

If all this is "user-friendly", can you tell me which user it is supposed to be friendly to?

Best wishes.
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by Cassandra »

TMark wrote:If all this is "user-friendly", can you tell me which user it is supposed to be friendly to?

Best wishes.

If one wants to have a "user-friendly" formulated rule set (consistent and as easy to be understood as possible), it is mandatory to have analysed, in which aspects (e.g. handling of some examples of another rule set) it might differ from the other rule set or other rule sets.

The discussions about this analysis are supposed to be not "user-friendly". This goes without saying, because the aim is not identical.

Some topics that must be discussed cannot be "user-friendly" from the very beginning, because they are related to some "1-in-a-million" or "1-in-a-billion" positions. Robert will have numbers that are more well-founded.

Compared to previous discussions with Robert, I estimate this one as factual and goal-oriented. Robert had been busy several years to develop his rule sets and his view on rule sets. So it will not be trivial to make another kind of view understandable, which is not aimed to torpedo his work, but to give some help by enlighten the szene from a different standpoint. May be that some details come to sight now, which had been hidden in the shadow for long.
Last edited by Cassandra on Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by Cassandra »

RobertJasiek wrote:
I'll edit Chris' proof (the second part only, which we are discussing here) later - may be tomorrow -, making the reference to local-1 and local-2\1 clearly visible.

Great!

Here it is:
***RED*** = deleted
BLUE = inserted
---(BLUE ITALIC)--- = comment


In a position, a string of a player is "two-eye-alive" if the opponent cannot force no intersection of the string with a two-eye-formation on.

...

For the implication two-eye-alive ->J2003-alive, imagine that a string is two-eye-alive. ***The string can either be uncapturable or not uncapturable*** The opponent can either force capture of the string or not. ---(This is what I mean with "primary")---

(1) ***The string is uncapturable*** The opponent cannot force capture of the string -> It is uncapturable. ---(This is what I mean with "secondary", the J2003-term follows from a "neutral" clause)--- -> It is J2003-alive

(2) ***It is not uncapturable -> The string is either capturable-1 or not capturable-1*** The opponent can force capture of the string. -> The opponent can force either no permanent stone on local-1 or not.

(2a) ***It is capturable-1*** The opponent cannot force no permanent stone on local-1 -> the string is capturable-1 -> It is J2003-alive

(2b) ***It is not capturable-1*** The opponent can force no permanent stone on local-1 -> Because the string is two-eye-alive there is in every hypothetical-strategy of its opponent a hypothetical-sequence in which we reach a two-eye-formation that includes one of its intersections. For every hypothetical-strategy H of the opponent, we choose a hypothetical-sequence S(H) in it where the oponent reaches a two-eye-formation and subsequently only passes. Because the two-eye-formation cannot be capture by only moves of its opponent, it consists of permanent stones. In S(H) the two-eye-formation that is formed on the captured string ***has either a stone on local-1 of the string or it*** does not have a stone on local-1 of the string ---(this follows from the first sentence of (2b)-new)---

***(2b1) If it has a stone on local-1 of the string, it is also on local-2.
(2b2) If it does not have a stone on local-1 of the string, then***
---(superfluous now)--- local-1 of the string consists of the one or both of the empty intersections of the two-eye-formation. Actually, it consists of one of the intersections since if it would consist of both, these would have to be adjacent to each other which contradicts the definition of a two-eye-formation. So, local-1 of the string consists of one intersection and during S(H) it becomes one of the the empty points of a two-eye-formation. This implies that this two-eye formation includes strings that occupy the intersections adjacent to local-1. Because local-1 consists of one intersection these adjacent intersections where empty or occupied by opposing stones. Hence, these intersections belong to local-2\1 of the string.

***In both (2b1) and (2b2)*** we see that the two-eye-formation that is formed in S(H) has permanent stones on local-2\1 of the string. Hence, if every hypothetical-strategy of the opponent of the string there is a hypothetical-sequence where a permanent-stone is played on local-2\1. Hence, the opponent cannot force ***both caputre of the string and*** no local-2\1 permanent stone. Hence, the string is capturable-2\1. Hence it is capturable-2. Hence, it is J2003-alive.

Hence, under the assumption that the string is two-eye-alive, we find that
it is J2003-alive . QED.


It will be just the contents of the table in prose.

We'll see:)

The table uses "two-eye-formation" as parameter, in Chris' proof this is a precondition. For the sake of comparision you can restrict yourself to the columns with "two-eye-formation" = "Y".
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by RobertJasiek »

Tmark, if you refer to the thread's initial rules text: If you do not understand something, please ask! If you wonder whether J1989 style rules could be user-friendly at all, then the simple answer is "no". If you wonder whether any Japanese style rules could be... - but that is another topic.

If refer to the maths discussion between Cassandra and myself, then the answer is: It is readable but not user-friendly for maths-freaks spending at least an hour per theory message. The contents is mostly preliminary studies for potential research. Afterwards comes research (we hope) and yet later its results might then be translated to something user-friendly. E.g., a likely later result might be: "There is more than one model for an equivalence between life defined via two-eye-formation and life defined via capturability. Different models create differences only in arcane, rare positions."
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by RobertJasiek »

Before I read your edited proof draft text more carefully, I need this information:

Which conjecture do you want to prove?! Please write it down carefully!

***

With primary you mean source text while with secondary you mean terms (words) defined as substituting abbreviations for the source text?
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Re: User-friendly Reading of the Japanese 1989 Rules

Post by Cassandra »

RobertJasiek wrote:Before I read your edited proof draft text more carefully, I need this information:

Which conjecture do you want to prove?! Please write it down carefully!

"If a string is two-eye-alive, it follows that it is J2003-alive.". That's the topic of part II of Chris' proof.

Preconditions are as in the original proof, additionally there is the definition of local-2\1 (local-2, but not local-1) and a deducted capturable-2\1 (... in local-2\1).


With primary you mean source text while with secondary you mean terms (words) defined as substituting abbreviations for the source text?

Yes, something like that.

Using (may be first) the "primary" text helps preventing to overlook some implications, what might be possible when using "secondary" terms and taking some properties of this term for "self-evident" or loosing them off sight.

An example:

Please refer to the part of Chris' proof, which is connected to your #0000.

Concerning local-2, the only really essential aspect is this one empty board point direct adjacent to the string.

Independent from the definition of any type of local-2xxx, this one empty point is part of local-2xxx, as long as the definition does not contain more that the following three elements:

  • Optional: include the string itself.
  • Recursively, include all board points adjacent to the string, which are empty or are not occupied by strings with a special property B.

The empty points direct adjacent to the string are never affected by a string's property B.
Last edited by Cassandra on Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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