[go]$$Bcm63 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O | $$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . 5 6 . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:18 pm
by The Intrepid
White's 30+ points behind by quick count. He needs to resort to extreme measures as soon as possible. In fact, he has to find a way to live inside of Black's moyo on the left side. Conversely, all Black needs to do is to reinforce his moyo there:
$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O | $$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm63 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X c . O X . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . d O . O | $$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . e . . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . b . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . a . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
A, C & D seem too small at the moment. I think the move I played is bigger. B seems fairly large, but still smaller than my move plus it's gote. E seems as large as my move, but I'm nervous that it would be too loose. I've actually been trying to decide between E and my move for quite a while now.
Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:14 am
by The Intrepid
"a" would have been safer. Black would get fewer points than in the game if White's invasion there failed. However, preventing the invasion would have been easier. As for how White should proceed next, perhaps he can start with
$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O | $$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . a X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O | $$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . a X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:10 pm
by billywoods
The Intrepid wrote:
"a" would have been safer. Black would get fewer points than in the game if White's invasion there failed. However, preventing the invasion would have been easier. As for how White should proceed next, perhaps he can start with
$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O | $$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . a X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O | $$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . W . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This looks generally more eyespacey to me, with much the same threat in the lower left. And, being higher, it looks like it has a chance to threaten to connect to the marked stone (and fail, of course, but maybe make an eye in the process). Why did you choose your move?
Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:43 pm
by quietimes
I'm tired. I think this is going to get me a predicted response and allow me some time to think. still undecided on what to do on the lower left corner. Can I rattle him into making a mistake?
$$Bcm63 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X 8 . O X . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O | $$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . 7 . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm63 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X O . O X . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O | $$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O 9 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:53 pm
by The Intrepid
@billywoods:
I based my suggestion on instinct rather than on detailed reading, so I make no claim that my move is better than the one you suggested. However, if you compare the following two diagrams, White has more eyespace after B6 than after C7:
$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O | $$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . ? ? , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . | $$ | . ? ? . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . ? ? . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . ? ? . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 3 . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O | $$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . ? ? , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . | $$ | . ? ? . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . ? ? . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . ? ? . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 3 . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Black should play at . Now white has to extend immediately. But white can't gain all the extra eyespace you indicated, because black is too strong nearby for white to extend that far:
$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O | $$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O | $$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 2 . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
provided black is happy for white to cut (as there's no eyespace away from the side). If white comes out instead with , black plays at , and the shape's a little weird for white. Just seems like it's better to play away from black's strength and on the third line immediately. (I suppose talking about eyespace is bogus - in any case white can't make more than one eye on the side.)
Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:45 am
by The Intrepid
Actually, my thinking was to play an attachment move such as :
$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O | $$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . 4 O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O | $$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . 4 O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
However, even if White played the extension to and Black responded with , as you suggested, White need not save . To the contrary, if can be sacrificed to create a living shape elsewhere inside of Black's moyo, then that's perfect. It's not easy to do this, though. I'll try to read out the situation in more detail later, but for the moment my intuition tells me to investigate the following continuation (with the aim to create a living shape in the top-left):
$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O | $$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . | $$ | . 5 W . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . B 6 . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . Q . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O | $$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . 6 X . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . c 5 , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . a . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . 4 O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
After , it looks to me as though black has too many ways of depriving white of an eye.
The Intrepid wrote:However, even if White played the extension to and Black responded with , as you suggested, White need not save . To the contrary, if can be sacrificed to create a living shape elsewhere inside of Black's moyo, then that's perfect.
Sure, if that's possible.
The Intrepid wrote:Also, White definitely should not retreat to "a" after below, but push forward to (perhaps "b" should be given some thought, also):
I agree, but in that case why not just play or b (my suggested move) first?
Perhaps it doesn't matter. I'm not sure whether white can live behind there at all. It looks hard.
at 
. Now white has to extend immediately. But white can't gain all the extra eyespace you indicated, because black is too strong nearby for white to extend that far:
, black plays at 
:
and Black responded with 
, as you suggested, White need not save 
. To the contrary, if 
, it looks to me as though black has too many ways of depriving white of an eye.
