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Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=10970

Page 10 of 11

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 1:17 pm
by Bill Spight
Loons wrote:
Saying amateurs get the metaphors but don't get the concept is an oxymoron.
Oxymorons are the best kind of morons. ;)
I think amateurs are trying to play thick and light but lack the technique, ie reading to do so at a high level.
Technique is important, but there is lack of understanding, as well.

When I was a 2 dan a visiting Japanese dan commented that I had a thick style of play. Once he pointed that out, I realized that it was so, but I had had no particular thought of playing thickly. It is something that just gradually developed.
Further, skillful attack involves making your opponent heavy; it's a two player affair. When Shapenaji struck white's cap it was revealed to be heavy, though it looked like a common light technique.
You are referring to the butsukari at Q-06? I don't think that the White stone became heavy at that point. In my view it became part of a thin group with the subsequent hane, and then heavy with the connection forming a three stone group.

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 1:29 pm
by Loons
Bill Spight wrote:You are referring to the butsukari at Q-06? I don't think that the White stone became heavy at that point. In my view it became part of a thin group with the subsequent hane, and then heavy with the connection forming a three stone group.
I was just wrong, illustrating your point.

Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:56 pm
by EdLee
Loons wrote:Saying amateurs get the metaphors but don't get the concept is an oxymoron.
It is not.

It shows (at least) two different levels of understanding:
  • If we say something is "heavy, like a burden; you want to get rid of it"
    many people would "understand" it from real-life, non-Go, education and experience.
  • But to show an understanding of sabaki in Go, one must be able to demonstrate it on the board, with actual moves.
    And, to repeat ad nauseum, people at x-kyu have an x-kyu understanding,
    and people at y-dan have a y-dan understanding.
    (So in fact it's an infinite continuum of levels.)
Loons wrote:I think amateurs are trying to play thick and light but lack the technique, ie reading to do so at a high level.
As Bill already mentioned, it's not just technique or reading: it's everything.

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:31 am
by drmwc
I think 18 was a mistake, and the start of things becoming heavy. White played the stone on the side with a plan of abandoning it if necessary - 18 tries to hold onto it but leave many cuts behind.

How about this as an alternative?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 5 4 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
If black insists on capturing the lone stone, White gives up a lot of points, but gets thickness and quite a nice moyo. I suspect it's playable for white. It certainly feels m ore in keeping with the spirit of this fuseki.

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:50 am
by Polama
drmwc wrote:I think 18 was a mistake, and the start of things becoming heavy. White played the stone on the side with a plan of abandoning it if necessary - 18 tries to hold onto it but leave many cuts behind.

How about this as an alternative?
Personally, I don't really like that strategy. Black is rich in points and has sente to start ensuring white doesn't profit too much from his thickness.

If we drop white's sacrifice stone:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 5 4 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
That doesn't feel like a crazy way for black to play: a bit territorial, but it's 4th and 5th line territory and ends in sente. So if black would be willing to entertain playing like this anyways, that seems to suggest the sacrifice stones value is almost completely wasted.

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:10 am
by skydyr
drmwc wrote:I think 18 was a mistake, and the start of things becoming heavy. White played the stone on the side with a plan of abandoning it if necessary - 18 tries to hold onto it but leave many cuts behind.

How about this as an alternative?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 5 4 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
If black insists on capturing the lone stone, White gives up a lot of points, but gets thickness and quite a nice moyo. I suspect it's playable for white. It certainly feels m ore in keeping with the spirit of this fuseki.
I'm not sure black should play :b21: to :b23: right away.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
If black just comes out, it's not clear to me what white's group is accomplishing, and it looks kind of thin. I suppose as white, I'd probably consider staking the game on making a huge left/top side moyo and being able to make sabaki on the right.

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:00 am
by drmwc
Polama:

I guess our positional judgement diverges. In the tewari variant without the sacrifice stone, I would be very happy with white.

Go is a topological game. Linking disparate groups across the board is very powerful, particularly early in the game.

sydyr:

I agree the line I showed may be sub-optimal. However, 21 is not necessarily a clear-cut improvement. After saving the singe stone white has a lot to aim at:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 23 pass
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
For example, white is developing aji against the corner. This invasion looks pretty plausible. It doesn't quite work yet, but is not too far from becoming a threat.

White can still go for the mega-moyo:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 23 again passes
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 7 6 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 8 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
This is a bit wasteful, but white gets sente and truly wonderful thickness.

White also has an emergency cut if he needs to get eyes:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 23 passes
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 5 6 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
White won't do this in a hurry since 24-25 is such aji keshi.

So overall, after white connects at 23, all the white bits are strong. There is a lot of aji for white to aim at. I don't think white is badly off.

Here's a final idea demonstrating aji for white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 23 again tenukis for some reason
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 3 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 X 7 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
White has a ropey cut! Cutting is fun, so this this must be nearly optimal. It's just a shame it doesn't work... (Black can capture the cutting stones is white is too insistent). However, the centre blocking move is now stronger for white.

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:30 am
by shapenaji
drmwc wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 23 pass
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . a 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
For example, white is developing aji against the corner. This invasion looks pretty plausible. It doesn't quite work yet, but is not too far from becoming a threat.
Looks a long way from working at the moment, I can't see how white can make a move that prevent's "a" from working without giving black the opportunity to fix. The stability of that group is entirely local.

White can still go for the mega-moyo:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 23 again passes
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 7 6 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 8 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
This is a bit wasteful, but white gets sente and truly wonderful thickness.
EDIT: 25 seems awfully submissive... why not 25 at 26? I don't see a strong w response?

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:57 am
by skydyr
shapenaji wrote:
drmwc wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 23 pass
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . a 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
For example, white is developing aji against the corner. This invasion looks pretty plausible. It doesn't quite work yet, but is not too far from becoming a threat.
Looks a long way from working at the moment, I can't see how white can make a move that prevent's "a" from working without giving black the opportunity to fix. The stability of that group is entirely local.

White can still go for the mega-moyo:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 23 again passes
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 7 6 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 8 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
This is a bit wasteful, but white gets sente and truly wonderful thickness.
EDIT: 25 seems awfully submissive... why not 25 at 26? I don't see a strong w response?
It may be worth noting that black passed for :b23: in each of these diagrams as well.

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:08 am
by drmwc
You mean this?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm24 23 again passes
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 8 . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 1 X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 5 O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Again, this looks OK for white. (Admittedly passing with 23 is unlikely to be the best move!)

SO I think an overall likely continuation, without the pass is something along these lines:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 23 doesn't pass
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I have no idea who's winning. This looks way better for white than the actual game.

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:11 am
by shapenaji
That, or something like this, it's complicated, and black has one extra stone on the board.


Also, b is viable in the following diagram:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm24 23 again passes
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . b 1 X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 5 O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
EDIT: Plaase Halp, my diagram broke!

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:43 pm
by Pippen
Just in case someone is still interested. This is the last position, black to play.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:05 pm
by shapenaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . B . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O a O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X X B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
"a" and "b" are miai and the marked stones have lots of breathing room, I dunno, what are you looking to get out of this game at this point Pippen?

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:09 pm
by Pippen
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O W . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I want to win it or do you think White's position is hopeless?

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:53 pm
by shapenaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O B O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I think it's pretty hard for w at this point. Especially now with the loss of sente
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