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#244 Bill vs Ed

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=11002

Page 10 of 22

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:07 am
by Bill Spight
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm62
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 3 X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Presumably White will continue like this and then tenuki.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm62
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X a . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 5 X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Bill considered this sequence gote for Black, not realizing the value of the threat for Black at "a". By implication, he considered his play to be sente for Black.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm62
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 6 . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . a . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
But the sequence I hoped that he might consider is :b62: - :b64: here. Not that he would have found the answer to :w65:, but how could he find it if the chance never arises?

Edit: :w65: might be at "a", but that's another story. :)

Edit: Unhidden.

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:37 pm
by Aidoneus
BTW, at 11 F and a steady wind between 22 and 25 mph, the wind chill here was about -10 F. (I think we hit a high of 18 F today.) All I can say is, at least I don't live in Buffalo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxuacZudBPU

I hope you are enjoying better weather where you are, Ed!

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:11 pm
by EdLee
Hi Aidoneus, your temperatures are crazy.
It's 66°F ( 19°C ) here this morning, with a high of 24°C ( 75°F ) today. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm63
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
( Local time Wed Nov 19, 2014. 08:11 am )

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:56 pm
by Aidoneus
My [stones] death was greatly exaggerated. Your board left off my last move. ;-)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm64
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 1 X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
I believe White's last move was gote, since he (White's always she, though!) needs to protect the cut. Then I can try calling the tune for a change.

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:01 pm
by EdLee
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm65
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
( Local time Wed Nov 19, 2014. 09:01 am )

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:04 pm
by EdLee
Instead of :b60: , the turn-block :b1: seems quite natural:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
( Local time Wed Nov 19, 2014. 09:04 am )

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:55 pm
by Aidoneus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm66
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
So, I'm wrong, again... Now B9 looks too small. I've read that the one-space jump to the center is almost always good, but it feels like I've already given up too much territory in this game! And I don't see how to develop a moyo with all the sides open the way they are. :sad:

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:42 pm
by skydyr
Aidoneus wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm66
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
So, I'm wrong, again... Now B9 looks too small. I've read that the one-space jump to the center is almost always good, but it feels like I've already given up too much territory in this game! And I don't see how to develop a moyo with all the sides open the way they are. :sad:
So, what is D10 doing that is so important you need to try to save it? Why would white care? When a stone isn't performing any function and is plastered against a live group, it's time to tenuki for something useful rather than threaten to save a stone white shouldn't care enough about to capture.

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:05 am
by Uberdude
66 isn't quite as silly as it looks as it does have a threat of the d9 cut, which isn't the biggest move on the board (k15 perhaps) but isn't small
EdLee wrote:Instead of :b60: , the turn-block :b1: seems quite natural:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
And sente to kill at 3.

In the game white k15 now has sneaky future aims of killing the top left/right black groups.

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:30 am
by wineandgolover
Ed, I know you have a pure aesthetic sense, but could you please publish coordinates on your turn? It makes the comments far easier to follow, because not everybody diagrams every time. Thanks.

Hope all is well in <deleted> Asia.

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:42 am
by skydyr
Uberdude wrote:
66 isn't quite as silly as it looks as it does have a threat of the d9 cut, which isn't the biggest move on the board (k15 perhaps) but isn't small
I was perhaps overly dramatic, but I don't see those two stones as being particularly valuable to white at the moment, when compared with the topside stone, for example.

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:01 am
by drmwc
Uberdude wrote:
66 isn't quite as silly as it looks as it does have a threat of the d9 cut, which isn't the biggest move on the board (k15 perhaps) but isn't small
EdLee wrote:Instead of :b60: , the turn-block :b1: seems quite natural:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
And sente to kill at 3.

In the game white k15 now has sneaky future aims of killing the top left/right black groups.
Does it work unconditionally? I think there may be a desperation ko left for white, with an example line being:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 6 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | 4 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 W . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
It's 'orrible for white. But it may become playable later into the game.

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:58 pm
by EdLee
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm67
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
( Local time Thur Nov 20, 2014. 10:58 am )

Hi W&GL, thanks; please see PM (when I have WiFi). :)

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:53 am
by Aidoneus
It's hell getting up at night and not being able to get back to sleep, so I'm posting a move that I hope is reasonable. :roll:

@ Ed: BTW, I figure with our vast strength difference that this is a teaching game. When my game reaches the hopeless stage just let me know and I'll resign. For the moment, I feel like I have almost enough potential territory to compensate for your realized territory. Just let me know when you know that this is clearly not true. :mrgreen:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm68
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
I considered G8, S6, and K15, all of which I rejected because they allow White to play P8 unhindered. I also considered P8 for awhile, but after looking at some sequences starting with Q7 (elephant eye) I decided to go with the attachment even though I've read to not attach to weak stones. In this particular position, though, I think that my only hope is to try and block White's access to the center.

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 3:48 am
by EdLee
Hi Aidoneus, consider every game a teaching game. :)
See also PM. And stay warm! :)

( Local time Thur Nov 20, 2014. 6:48 pm )
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